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A new movie starring Tom Roth, Naomi Watts and Micheal Pitt called Funny Games is due out soon. For all of you that don't know, it is a remake of a German film, one I didn't particularly like, but that's neither here nor there. What my main interest is it is a growing number of remakes being done right now. I don't know if it's me but it seems original ideas have been laid to the wayside in favor of redoing someone else's idea. And I challenge you to name a good recent remake. (And no Transformers doesn't count)

I hsven't seen 3:10 to Yuma and am having a hard time getting enthuiasm up to. Chalk it down to the hordes of terrible remakes. Though one recent remake I will not diss is Rob Zombie's Halloween. I hate his music but he has vision as a director.

Are good movies hard to write? No, they are not. I've wrote a lot of stories. Have I wrote a good one? I have no idea. It is that mentality is why producers chicken out and keep trotting John Grisham and Larry McMurtry material out. Remember, my friends, just because you've been published, it doesn't make you a writer.

No, Adrian Lyne's Unfaithful wasn't better than Chabrol's original

It's like this. Remakes strike no new ground. I am not against remakes, per se. But they are rarely if ever worth the film they are processed on. Is Adrian Lyne's film Unfaithful bad? No, by itself it is fine. However, if you put the two films up against each other, the other thing you could say positive about Mr. Lynne's Unfaithful is that it has a naked Diane Lane in it, but take that for what it's worth. Remakes are for cowards. They rarely strike new ground. When they are reimagined, the reimagining is poor. No, the difference is decades doesn't factor in either. That is a cop out excuse. However, maybe the argument isn't about remakes. Maybe, it should be about lack of director imagination. One last bit on remakes, watch Rob Zombie's Halloween. Like the movie or not, Mr. Zombie has a vision and his remake struck new ground in the Halloween lore.

It's not about intentions or anything else. It's about not thinking outside of the box, people. By everyone's way of thinking, it was okay for Pierce Brosnan's remake of The Thomas Crown Affair and it's not. So, this best intentions and everything else is missing the true point.

Plus, Mr. Gallien, it goes without saying we tell the same story over and over but that is the same thought process that spawns every summer a slate full of movies that are sequels.

Well, yeah. Okay but that's hardly the point.

Since this is a writers website, give them up. I'm interested in people's thoughts.

Believe me, I now how you feel. You begin to feel like it is too expensive to write. Most every contest has that line that says you must register, that it is for your own protection. What I did was seperate out what I thought was my best material and registered it on wga.org for $20.00. In my heart, I don't believe registration should be necessary but should you do it? Yes, I didn't see any other option. Not so much because you have to worry about someone stealing your material. It just seems to be the way the system works. Gulp hard, pick your best material and do it. Maybe, your work will eventually pay you back.

Face it, Hollywood under appreciates writers. You hear constantly that they don't make movies like they used to and generally point to lack of acting talent as the reason. Well, lack of writing talent and the tight noose that keeps new writers out is the reason.

Britney and Amy Winehouse make good music? You're kidding, right? That's as ridiculous as calling them sympathetic characters. Stupidity is not something to sympathize. Besides, druggie with who wants to be good has been done in the ground.

I've entered one but it is due to be announced to August. I want to find one that decides sooner but sorting through them seems to take longer than any of my stories took to write. I would be greatful for suggestions on ones to look at it.

Yeah, my friends, but what is the common theme in all of this. Belief in yourself. Mumble it, jumble it, they all sell the same product, just in different packages.

Your faith has made you believe you were whole. Were you not whole to begin with? Rhetorical question.

Finding inner peace? I believe that's teaching of buddhaism. A very old religion, much older than L. Ron and is ilk.

Just glancing at the loglines on moviebytes and taking scripts beings made, it occurs to me that screenwriters sit on two ends of the fence. End number 1 is the ultra serious. A group of weirdo freaks inside the government is planning to assassinate the president and blow up the world on the same day. Lovable loser asshole finds out and has to stop the unstoppable. Then there is number 2. Juvenile comedy. Lovable loser wants to get laid and he and Steven Zaun go in search of the ultimate fuck. There is no in between in the world of cinema (and this applies to cinema only) If you want something more than toilet humor, you're best not going to the movie. Writers seem to only be able to write about conspiracy nuts who take their toilet humor way too serious. Need an example Judd Apatow.

I mean could someone please write a story where harrowing, emotional, a thrill ride or Adam Sandler and blonde women with fake breasts are not used.

I'm not complaining. More like lamenting. Besides, isn't about someone give brunettes their due?

Why then, my friends, do you constantly hear that TV is creatively ahead of the movies? Joel Surnow when he left 24 didn't say he liked the creative directions of movies so that's where he wanted. Nope, he said it about TV, albeit cable TV. I am not a "movies were better then" person. Let's be honest, you see Jumper once, perish the thought, what then? You want to see it again? God no. And please don't give me the crap Knocked Up was good. So then was Porky's, Meatballs 3, Revenge of the Nerds, The Last American Virgin, Me and Him and on and on and on.

For once, let's begin to think outside the box and not "What would Steve Corell do?"

To address M.'s point though. Sure, you can write for a young audience and address a serious point. But that is not my point. Good movies have no age demographics. Yet all writers do is target young teenage boys. Last I looked outside, the world has more than young teenage boys.

Besides, there are more levels of funny than look what I left in the toilet. Sorry, Judd Apatow,but Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure in a classic. You'll never aspire to that greatness. Stop trying.

Okay, I admit I'm adding more venom than I should. Consider it this way instead. Knocked Up was run of the mill. It ran over ground and material that is boring. I agree with another post about being tired of quest films. Besides, if you don't stand up as a writer and say this sucks or that sucks, you're doomed to more of the same. Unless I missed something, the 80's is over. As much as Hardbodies should be remembered, it should be forget. Friends, join me and give up your teenage years. They're gone. Stop trying to glorify them. Listen, it's okay to make movies aimed at teenage boys but it's not okay when every since freaking film is aimed at that group

Dear M,

More or less Knocked Up and Porkies is in the same category. The difference is Porkies wasn't taken as serious. What about the successes of Weeds and Sex and the City? Do they not prove that our society craves adult comedies.

And most importantly, challenge yourself. If you don't think outside the box, then your words are just words in a sea of billions of other words.

Paula,

The real topic of the thread is why almost ever single writer takes themselves way to serious or is way too juvenile. There is no inbetween ground.

Besides, I hate to sound like an indy film conspiracy nut but do people find these films funny on their own or do they find them funny because the big studio tell them to. After all, I thought we left Transformers in the 80's where it belonged. Oops, I forgot Transformers made a lot of money so it must be good, right?

And when I complain about toilet humor films, I am not lamenting the lack of moral fiber in our society, if there is such a lack or not.

I don't have to insist, Paula. Movies bear me out. For example, let's take Steve McQueen's Bullitt. How would it made today? Big actions, big explosions and big car chases and thus lose its charm. Or don't you rememeber Sylvestor Stallone's Get Carter, which was a travesty to the original. I am not saying there are not outstanding talents out there. There are. What I am saying is writers have become fat and complacent and only draw their influences from a very limited range of films. As a writer would you rather entertain a thousand people or inspire a hundred? If every writer said they would rather inspire a hundred then all the better.

Besides, Paula, you may live in a city where they play the in between movie in theaters (or not I don't know) but many people don't.

Besides, why do you think box office numbers constantly fall? If there is a good movie to see, people will see it, in spite of video games, internet and what have you. STOP DISPOSABLE ENTERTAINMENT NOW.

I guess the fascinating thing for me though is I never used to watch television shows and as a writer, I'm not sure if I'm allowed to call myself that or not but I digress, I could never imagine being able to carry characters on for long stretches. However, if you were to ask me now about writers that inspire me they would all be TV writers. More and more I watch TV shows and think wow.

You can't blame them, Ron, but that was Ghost's story and how it should end but is so not the point. Besides, let's look at history and especially Francois Truffant. Do you suppose someone said to him that "French cinema is what it is. Like it and shut up."

Ron,

Then, explain Weeds, Sex and the City, Boston Legal, and mostly every cable series's popularity. HBO wouldn't make Rome if there wasn't a market for it. Plus, it's a sad statement on our society when only big explosions are considered all that's necessary for entertainment.

I am not expressing a bleak view, far from it. I don't watch TV in the traditional way either. All the TV I watch is on DVD. However, the quality of writing in TV and movies is vastly lopsided because TV does what movies don't. The more you watch, the more you become convinced. I mean, Boston Legal has Candace Bergen and William Shatner in its cast, both on the other side of fifty, which is expressly forbidden in film. Weeds has two 40 year old women in the lead, a sin in movies akin to blasphemy. The writing on the recently deceased Deadwood had no peer in the cinema world. Also, I deeply admireAmy Sherman-Palladino's writing on the Gilmore Girls.

One complaint is recycling. There is a new movie coming out with Rhona Mitra. I forget the name but does it remind you of anything(hint Milla Jovovich?

Yeah, the Avengers movie was s great. Just don't hold your breath. Maybe, we should live by the old proverb, do it rght or don't do it at all.

Larry,

Weeds is relevant because of the style of comedy it is and the fact that that style has disappeared from movie screens. I agree with your opinion on Billy Wilder. He is a big influence of mine. If I were to think of a single thought to sum up this post is why has Billy Wilder's, or Blake Edwards style of comedy disappeared. I know the whole what the studio wants argument is the main reason but let's set that aside for a moment. I mean, we all know studios blow with the wind and would produce porno films tomorrow if they thought there was an audience. Why has one style of comedy taken over the mainstream?

I am 31 so not in the old man demographic just yet. Okay, with that taken care of, I continue. First off, Paula, I can't speak of all the United States but I can say not every city in the United States has a theater that shows indie films ready available. I live in a suburb of Portland, Oregon and there are no theaters that show alternatives to the big Hollywood theaters readily available. There are a few that show older movies but that is it. The Portland, Oregon metro area houses more than a million people. We have plenty of strip joints, the most per capita in the U.S., not that I am bragging about that, but we do not have indie theaters. The couple that were are gone. Welcome to corporate America where 1 company owns 99% of the US theaters. Second off, excuse my language but fuck demographics. That is so not the freaking point. I again am 31. I was born in 1976 so I cannot say "the world was better back then" because I am in the now. However, I consider myself a writer and an admirer of the craft. When I see good, I'm inspired. When I see bad, I get mad. I look around and watch Hollywood. Where does my inspiration come from, TV, anime. I watched an anime called Solty Rei and the writing was genius, both funny and smart. Another very popular anime Oh! My Goddess is another that the writing is superlative. It is smart and very funny. TV I see Boston Legal, The Gilmore Girls, Weeds and Dexter to name a few. The writing is unmatched and unequaled in the world of cinema. The issue is good writing/bad writing. There are no shades of gray in this area. Where is the best level of work occuring and where is it not? Do you want to see something because the writing is great or do you want to see it because the commerical on TV tells you to see it 50 times a day? Lastly, Paula, I do not go to the theater as much as you do but I am well versed and keep up with what is being made, allbeit on DVD. I have not drawn a line in the sand and said I am not watching anything made after said date, unlike. My knowledge of the cinema world begins at the beginning and continues on to present day, no matter the decade or whether it was made in color, technicolor, eastmancolor, cinemascope, digital or whatever else, unlike you.

I don't chase a genre, a time frame, a star quality, whether or not it is in english, neither live action nor animation. I chase GOOD writing.

Ouch, Michele, ouch.

Besides, if writers don't change the world, who will?

Randy,

I've been afraid of seminars in general. Can you help me with a sense of how they helped you? Thanks

thanks.

So far so good with me, too.

The deadline is today. Anyone entered in the past? How was your experience with it?

Thanks.

Not that kind of afraid. I believe in continuing education. How does the word leery sound instead?

Did you feel the feedback help re-evaluate your submission?

Michele, You are right.

I am not an indy conspiracy theorist or anything like. Let me say it's pointless to be different if your idea is unwatchable. A great movie is one you can see a million times. Not one you see once, are impressed by its genius and done with.

Orlanda,

I take you've entered the current contest?

Okay, let's take it this way. There are more female filmmakers doing erotica type material than there ones who write comedy. It's strange, at least to me, that female filmmakers dabble more willing in lesbian material (ie L-Word)than comedy. I mean, Tina Fey is it basically.

Paula,

It's an observation. Please, correct me and tell me who I'm missing. I don't remember saying it to be a fact.

The counter arguement that "that is how Hollywood. You just have to accept it is bogus." Writers have to change for Hollywood to change.

Paula, I reread my post and I said filmmakers not writers, but again point out who I missed. One I did miss who I have an immense respect for is Amy Sherman-Palladino. She ranks near the top of my list and in my very humble opinion is a genius. But her work has been TV as has most of Tina Fey.

I'm a huge Jason Statham fan. I was disappointed by Crank.

But it was meant as pointing back to a general allergy towards certain material. I mean, let's not forget that Westerns were supposed to be dead and then 3:10 To Yuma was made.

Paula,

Influences make the writer and give an insight into them. You and I have been sparring, for lack of a better word. What has inspired you? Who are your influences?

Again, the point of writers taking themselves way too serious? Yes, no?

Its what we Hoosiers who transplanted ourselves to Oregon do. We're still working on a subtle sarcasm. Just haven't gotten the hang of it yet.

Besides, if you and Randy are going to tag team, don't I get a partner? Isn't that how it works in wrestling?! Again we transplanted Hoosiers living in Oregon are still very unrefined, so please inform me.

Dear Sir,

My life began at my birth. I was born six days after the bi-centennial. It took me a couple of years to realize it but I eventually came to terms with that fact. I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a city torn apart by discontent and strife and one teetering on the brink of a civil war, or at least so I was told. General Wayne was dead but it would take another ten years before he would acknowledge that fact. As a result, there was a major power void waiting to be filled (remember this was Indiana in the 1970's). On the national stage, the Gerald Ford era was finally nearing end. A lot had changed during his lengthy run as president and no one was quite sure where to turn. I, however, could not concern myself with such trivialities. I spent my first few years of existense in a state of distress. It would take me a couple more years for me to realize who I was and figure out why I was put on this planet. Of course, once I figured it out, I constructed a lengthy 150 year plan that I immediately scaled back. After many drafts, I came up with a 200 year plan. By this time, I was thirty and the world around me had changed greatly. As opposed to the early 80's when I conceived my first plan, there was a Republican in office and the US economy was hurting. There was war in the middle east and our elected officials made us believe the boogeyman was coming to get us.

(This unofficial biography was neither approved of nor written by Thomas Swan)

It's all natural, Michele. I thought I'd throw a curve for fun.

Dear Constituents,

In hushed repetition we continue on aimlessly hoping. The big man carries a sign that hope was legislated away. But still you try to pretend black is nothing if not gray. Take it all the way is all I have to say.

Well, I was bored with the topics at hand. You and Paula complain about silly threads so I offered one up. I could counter with all my college degrees and all the interesting people of noted quality who looked at me but what fun is that.

Writers everywhere come out in show of support against sentences. Their anger against words overwhelming. "Blank pages make for better ideas," shouted the protesters from a prepared script.

Well, yeah, what you're saying is completely true but it is a delicate balancing act and I feel a character with issues has to be handled in a very careful manner because they can overshadow the other characters and the story as a who. Plus, you cannot overload the viewer. You have to dole the issues out in measured spoonfuls. I don't know if Jack Nicholson in As Good As It Gets is the best example because it is more Jack Nicholson being himself and his grandiose persona is more front and center than character issues. My example would be James Spader's character on Boston Legal.

Completely off topic, Ben, but the problem I had with Crank is that it kicked right into the action and didn't give Jason Statham enough scene chewing opportunity. War was good. Chaos was alright, probem being everyone seemed disinterested. The new, which I forget what it is called, definitely I will see.

Good one, too. The difference I propose though are subtlety. Compsre and contrast the two lead characters in Boston Legal and their issues. William Shatner's Denny Crane and James Spader's Alan Shore. One you can carry on far longer

Good references, Jean.

Well, we have to remember every story has characters that have issues. That's all part of what drives a stories. Obviously, these types can be divided up and the ones this thread is focusing on seems to be the more off balanced ones. Make no mistake about it though, Michele. These types are still made to elicit audience sympathies with whatever plot device in play in the course of the story. The argument is not whether or not the character will be viewed as sympathetic. I mean, the Jack Nicholson character in One Flew Over The Cuckoos nest was mainly a sympathetic one. When he was not sympathetic, it could be traced back to human nature and the eventuality that no matter our good intentions we are bound to screw up and do something stupid. However, the time frame of the story and the climate of the country at the time the book was written and, more or less, when the movie was made, was what made Jack Nicholson's character sympathetic. He tried to rail against the hospital establishment that he at first felt was surpressing his freedoms and then he became the voice of the other patients and their discontent with the lack of freedoms. Your first example of James Spader in Secretary, Michele, which I did not mean his character would be a great TV character I was using another example, is also a sympathetic character. Remember characters don't have to be likable to illict sympathy. Viewers recognize something that they identify within the character and that is what they latch onto. We see that we are no freaks so to speak because we are not alone in our abnormality, whatever it may be. James Spader's character in Secretary is a fetishist and people can latch on and sympathize with his character that the different exist not only in them but in the normal. These things and the ability to use them correctly differeniate 5 pages scripts from 100 page ones

When a snowball rolls down a hill it grows. At the bottom of the hill that snowball, which was once little is big. That's the point.

Ben,

Only one thing to get from screenwriting books and that is formatting. Reading screenwriting books waters down your imagination

Authentic is an overused word. Face it, flaws equal material. If your character is normal and well adjusted, you have a 1-page script.

Ben,

My point mainly is that after reading the screenwriting books your mind is filled with all this information that a person may or may not need. They scare you. They scare me and ultimately they stifle creativity. It is my personal feeling that you have to keep writing and writing. Take advice given but always place it in context that it's given. Listen but never think what you are doing is wrong. Most importantly, write and continue writing.

Ben,

My point mainly is that after reading the screenwriting books your mind is filled with all this information that a person may or may not need. They scare you. They scare me and ultimately they stifle creativity. It is my personal feeling that you have to keep writing and writing. Take advice given but always place it in context that it's given. Listen but never think what you are doing is wrong. Most importantly, write and continue writing.

Wow, Randy. You do have a sense of humor. Bravo.

Randy, But of course you Texans do have a great sense of the absurd. You guys did put two generations of Bushes on the national stage. Bravo!

I am calling you out, my friend. I can at least find Paula Smith's material on moviebytes and thus prove her legitmacy as a writer. You, I cannot. You'll find me but not you. If you are a writer, then you have free reign to criticize others. If not, shut up.

Dear Rita,

Sorry to hear it. When you finally write your prophesies (I mean screenplays) let us glory in all your endeavors, if, of course, you aren't too busy parting some sea or something. Please give Mr. Scorsese, Mr De Niro and Mr Bush my regards and well wishes.

Here's hoping you find enough stone tablets, Mr. DeMille.

Your bored friend

P.S. No copying my other posts. That's copyright infringement

Heh, guys, don't blame me. He started it and, as for his constructiveness, he gives none. Last time I checked, this was a writing website and my friend, who I have all the love in the world for, has commonly put down people. He doesn't offer advice. He offers criticisms that have no merit and are uncalled for. After his last post on another theard I was annoyed. Plus, I don't care if he is Dan Brown incarnate, (oh wait, Dan Brown is not dead) his posts have neither been helpful nor warranted. I mean, he called my posts drivel. While that is true, I would think Mr. DeMille could come up with a better descriptive adjective than that. Where is the creativity?

P.S. True, you may not want to provoke people from Texas, I mean we provoked them when they wanted their independence and look what happened. Eight years of George Bush. Plus, there maybe Texas rattlers but we Oregonians we have some much worse...Okay, so maybe we don't.

Different subject time. Of late my method of writing has been heavily influenced by television. I understand that TV has a lot more time to develop characters than film does but film has gotten into a huger rut where you are given the same visual cues over and over as to a characters back story and the type of person they are. I think there is a lot to take from the way certain shows develop their characters and relate their backstory. For all those who struggle with character motivations, please speak up.

Why drivel? You can call something drivel but without explaining why then it's not worth the six letters it takes to write the words. Didn't you take essay writing in college? Expound your work, Paula.

In a serious manner and not call someone stupid or criticize their questions, go for it.

John makes a good point that most people who come to this forum are newbies. It may or may not be true I have no clue. No matter the level you are, writing is a give and take affair. Granted most of the time it is the loneliest profession because you are creating on your own but writers still need a community. Moreover, established writers should always be more patient and constructive to quote unquote newbies. My beef with Randy is he summarily writes off people and their posts without legitimate reasoning to back up his post. That is wrong. I have been writing for a long time but am very new to the post, yes. My material speaks for itself. Whether I am to be classified a writer or not is neither here nor there. But the fact is I have put in the hours and know the hardships of the process. Those who progress on past beginner have a duty to teach all not some and narrow minded writers who dismiss beginners and say they have no time for beginners are a disgrace. So, a-I have no problem with Randy except the fact that he states an opinion without reasoning it out. b-I never wrote anything bad about him until he continually badgered me as Terry Frazier pointed out. c-He has no patience for anyone's opinion but his own. You see how riled up he got when I returned the insults.

And most importantly, is he the only Randy Roberts in the world? How does he even know I was talking about him? Jeez, man. Lighten the hell up.

Dear John,

So sarcasm and humor has no place in your world? Bob Dylan, John Lennon, Evelyn Waugh, P.G. Wodehouse David E Kelley, Woody Allen are all persona non grata in your world? Not that I'm comparing my writing ability to any of them but I still aspire.

If production companies, do not accept people with wit and imagination anymore, again not saying I am one of those, it's just sad.

IT'S ALL FUN AND GAMES, PEOPLE. RELAX!

Dear, Uncle Lew Sorry the dog died. Taxman came by and said I was in his will as his sole beneficary. Oh, well. I guess that's how things go. Glad to see you directing films again. Though I really have to wonder if an audience is ready to see existential porno films in 3D. Tell Uncle Miguel, Big Tony, Little Todd and his last four co-defendants were looking for him.

P.S. Given the sensitive nature of Texans, I don't think the word hijack is acceptable in post yesterday world.

Yours in no specific order

Somewhere Ben Hecht cries George Capra sighs Howard Hawks buries his head and asks why. Francois Truffaut isn't sure. James Whale isn't worried. Louis B Mayer will never be hurried. And yet Mr. Demille continues on.

How shall I propel this thread to get as many posts as the others? Common, kiddies. Show your love for Paula.

Degrees don't make for smarter people. Vivid imaginations do. I'm not a Hollywood writer but I still feel you can't replace a good imagination, no matter. Question-Do universities offer such degrees?

How many times though do you read an ad that a studio wants a writer with a college degree? I'm not saying studies don't help but call me a naive romantic, I believe your writing will speak for itself. If anything you want a degree in English to have a knowledge for greater source material.

I was watching a Marx Brothers movie the other day and it occured to me how well the material has aged. Nearing 70's old, the material is neither stale, arcane, nor really dated. I call attention to this because the Marx Brothers did not adlib. Another one to note is George Burns and Gracie Allen TV show. Again the comedy is not dateable, because the material is so well done and does not pander to demographics. Burns and Allen did not really adlib either.

Ben,

My view of why Hitman failed was because everyone had seen it before and there was very little story, not that I was expecting any. It repeated action sequences from other movies as well. Plus, it was an insult to our intelligence and I'll give you the reason why. In the movie, the Interpol agent demands the FSB cede priority to Interpol. I had to laugh at that. The real FSB would have ran him out of Russia in two seconds. The Interpol agent got around the FSB by seeking the aid of a bumbling cop which again would never, ever happen. There is a reason the FSB is called the new KGB. I know it was an actiion pic but a little reality check would have helped.

Ben,

I don't know how accomplished a writer you are but you had a previous thread about action/thriller writing now you have one about animation, two very opposite ends of the spectrum. It's great if you can successfully play in both worlds and I would never advice anyone to limit themselves. I honesty you may be stretching yourself a bit far creatively speaking.

But to answer in what I know. You might consider the anime field. Japanese anime is continually growing in this country and starting to attract American writers. Funimation studios is continually snapping up material, all be it for DVD release though.

Political thrillers nowadays are as straight laced as an Indiana Republican. They also suffer a major disconnect by disavowing any connect with the present day reality that the writer lives in. Think about Phillip K Dick's Minority Report. Written in its time the 50's or 60's, I forget which, it is set in the future but accurate mirror the time frame with which it was written in because of the absurdity of the politics both in real life and reel life. Still, it has its elements of black humor because the lead character gets caught up in a system he previously so believed in. The Manchurian Candidate is another example. It is also serious but the absurd fills the relationship between Angela Lansbury and Laurence Harvey's character. Plus, Angela Lansbury's character is so absurdly brilliant and not meant to be viewed in strict black and white terms. Thus, I get to the best politica piece of all time by Mr. Patrick McGoohan The Prisoner. The true genius is when his character unmask the head of the island and we find that is all ran by a bunch of monkies. Do we take literally that monkies ran the joint? No, of course, but don't politicians seem so absurd that the monkey metaphor works; except for Dick Chaney who is evil incarnate and George Bush who is stupid incarnate. I digress. My point, Politics is by itlsef an absurd filled with monkies and jackasses. As a writer, shouldn't these themes at least merit consideration? Or has pathetic action sequences that have been rehashed more times than I care to count, come to rule the day?

Find a screenwriting template for a while then if you still feel the calling change but screenwriting software is expensive so make sure you want to do.

Writers doing play on words? What next? Baseball players playing baseball? Artists drawing? Singers singing? I mean honestly.

Dear Rob,

I am not offended by your usage of the word but I am with Michele as I construed your usage in the negative. You may have wanted to use pussycat instead. Plus, if you're going to use wit, try a cinematographers website not a writers one. I mean, that's just common sense. I mean, what next? Metaphors, irony and symbolism? Have you no shame, sir? Sorry, I was being ironic.

Mara, My opinion only but you do have to guide your reader without overwriting but you may want to drop visual clues.

Are you thinking of Who Framed Roger Rabbitt?

Or she might be catergorizing poor Rob into a group of men named Richard. Very untrustworthy lot.

Great, now because of this thread I went back and struck both dick and pussy, all play on words and all other writers tools out of my new screenplay. Oh well, I suppose I could put in a couple of big, unnecessary explosions and sell it to Michael Bay. Maybe I oughta consult the feline

Somewhere a pussycat named Dick is crying.

Never has one person regretted one word so much. Everyone should buy Rob's book for picking on him. Or he should buy a thesaurus. I'm not sure which. From here on out, I proclaim the motto of this board-Don't be a p@34y.

But of course you guys are just jealous cause Sandy Frank never said anything good about your writing. I know I am

Ben,

I respect your opinion and for going out on a limb but Speed Racer 80 million opening. Oh my god, I hope not. It's a cartoon. That's all it needs to be. That's all it should be. I will hold my more inflammatory opinions about a live action version of Speed Racer.

Love Guru could do well, depends on if people still care about Mike Meyers. He still probably has an audience but he hasn't done much recently.

En garde.

As for contests, I've entered into my first two ever so I have my own reasons for wanting summer to come quick.

As for Wanted, I haven't seen a preview yet but I noticed it was by the director who directed the Russian films Day Watch and Night Watch so I am definitely interested.

Notice I didn't say Russian director because he is not Russian, he is Kazahistanian

1. Benefits (not necessarily money) How quick the announcements are made, Written feedback yes or no.

2.Too many written rules. A contest has to have rules ,sure, but the more I have to read the more I think they'll reject me without even reading it.

Besides, Michele, what's the difference between metaphorical fencing and shit throwing? They're one and the same, that is of course until actual swords are introduced but that's neithe upor down. Argumentative banter back and forth could be considered shit throwing.

I like you, Rob. You're funny

Paula, I said could be. Mud slinging, shit throwing, jousting, fencing, verbal repartee. Granted, all mortal sins in the eyes of writers, apparently but what is the difference? After all, twenty different witnesses see twenty different things.

Descriptive terms, my dear girl.

Actually, Terry, give the man credited. It says on Amazon that he's wrote two screenwriting books. Anyone ever wonder though why people write "formula" screenwriting books? If the formula is so good, why don't the use it themselves?

I have a question for Rob, though. Do you believe screenwriting books kill creativity. I've wrote 12 screenplays and never read a how to book. Granted, I haven't sold any of mine yet but the operative word is yet.

Ben,

Wanted, I am interested in. Love Guru, I don't know. Mike Meyers has been away for a time so we'll just have to see if he still has it as a writer. As for a 30 mil prediction for Indiana Jones, I have to disagree with you. I don't know what it's opening will be but I'd be very surprised if it is that low. You know it will be hyped major. Speed Racer, I think they should shoot whoever proposed making it into a live action movie, but that's just me.

As for contests, I entered a story in Blue Cat and a different one in scriptapalooza. I have written for a number of years but this is my first foray into contests so I am anxious.

And thus the cat lives to fight another day.

Yours, Monkey #6

John, my sister would call it being closed minded but call me closed minded. There are just some things that I don't think should be touched, not because they are sacred but not "movie" material. Of course, Transformers was made into a movie so I guess Speed Racer is par for the course.

Ben, Indiana Jones may or may not be a great success but one thing I think it will do is open big. It will be promoted heavily and the franchise tag will spark interest alone.

Besides, I have to show loyalty because I was born in the state of Indiana, if for no other reason.

Good for you Rob. But isn't this like a door to door salesman going to a house, screwing up and then waiting five minutes and going back to that same house with a different pitch, in the hope that they forgot your screw up? Just hope Michele doesn't see this.

So, if wannabe screenwriters saved their money and didn't buy anymore screenwriting how-to books, could all those writers pool the money they would have spent on those books and start their own production company?

Now nobody get me wrong. I am not antibooks but I was looking at our friend Rob Tobin's posts and in everyone he is selling something. Be it books, seminars or whatever. There is a constant barrage of someone wanting your money. I am of the mind you write, write and write. That is all I have ever done. I have taken writing classes. I admit it. No matter what the best thing I ever pulled from classes was about formatting the rest has been trial and error.

THERE IS NO SHORTCUT, no matter what my friend Rob says.

Which do you think my friend Rob has made more money on? His own writing or off of wannabe screenwriters? I mean, look at his posts, he's always selling something. That's the screenwriting formula

Yeah, in 30 years humans will be redundant too. Microsoft will have worked out a better model. Experiences will be un-necessary. Newspapers will be obsolete because news makers will tell you their experiences directly.

But we'll have a different version of the Vietnam...I'm sorry Iraq war. I get those two confused all the time.

Sorry, Gene, but some posts just have a natural flair to them and Rob put a big bullseye on his butt daring people to fire.

But your explanation was so detailed and concise that it basically made any more unnecessary.

I thought it tasted funny. Oh well.

You totally miss the point of my post. Is it really sour grapes to notice that in every post you are selling something? And like insects to a light, you and your ilk see an opportunity and swarm around like knats

Of course, seeing the metaphor you use I can understand why you have boiled down such a beautiful and creative art form as screenwriting to a bastardized mathematical formula.

First off, structure and story construction are very important. No one in their right mind would suggest otherwise. However, I say to you that no one ever can pick up your book or anyone elses and use whatever mathematical formula you created that afternoon and instantly write a winning screenplay. It does not work that way and you disrespect the art form to suggest it does.

The fledgling writer will seek knowledge from your book or somene else's in an attempt to gain understanding about the "mythical" art of screenwriting. You and all your brothers fill their heads with rules and regulations that should be metered out over time and not all at once. The poor novice sits there with their brain in a tizzy and guess what happens. Creativity goes out the window.

If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Tobin, screenwriting is a creative art, right?

Lastly, D o

P.S.

Hi, My name is Thomas Swan and I've created a new writing formula. It's called putting pen to paper and usung your imagination. In it, you create worlds and characters, dialogue and action. Your first attempts may not be Academy Award worthy, mine certainly weren't, but using my formula, I've gotten pretty good.

This formula isn't for sale. It's to use. Now, go write, you pussies.

(*the word pussies is used here with special permission from Rob Tobin)

Granted I don't have Sandy Frank endorsing my formula but I'm told Mischa Auer is fascinated

Plus, Mr Tobin, why does everything you do come with a price tag? I guess you only care about screenwriters when money is involved.

Face it, Indiana Jones will be hyped something major.

Granted it probably won't be worth the hype because far too much time has passed and George Lucas screenwriting ability and moviemaking abilities have gotten progressively worse. Lucas seems to favor visual over content and that absolutely will not work with Indiana Jones.

The main reason everyones excited is because of Lucas and Spielberg.

Ben, curious to know what you think of the rising controversy with the Love Guru. Since you think it will do good box office, will the uproar in the Hindu community hurt it in your opinion.

Plus, I saw the preview for Speed Racer and it was what I expected. I guess that what happens when you wan.t to make a movie for your young niece

Alexis,

House and Music and Lyrics. You have my attention and interest. Count me in.

Sex and the city and the X-Files one will be interesting. How both are done wil be very interesting to see. Sex and the City movie may be a sleeper hit; depending if the creative team and the actresses can recapture the magic.

The look and feel of the first Halloween owes a lot to 1970's Italian Giallo films though.

Ben,

Yeah, I agree with you. Mike Meyers is not a writer who writes blatantly offensive material. I still can't say it's going to be a big hit. It may but I think it's a wait and see how the public accept it and how much promotion is used.

As for The Party, I didn't like Peter Sellars in it. I liked the movie but I thought Peter Sellars didn't have his magic working on that one.

Ben,

I am no authority or do I speak as one but digital is my stance whenever possible. Reason-It's cheaper.

Alexis,

First off, let me say I agree with Randy Roberts in that you did not need to register this piece just yet. There is not enough to steal for it to be a loss to you. Plus, you will have to re-register your finished product because WGA will consider your additions significant enough to alter the storyline. But its your money and your free to do as you please. Okay, that done. I hate the title. Obviously, it is a working title but you give a quick characterization of your main character. I believe you should never label your character or give away his or her secrets. If they have ADD, for example don't tell me right away. Hint at it and show me through their actions and the world with which they move in. Second, we are thrown into the plot far too early. Your premise interests me but I feel you tell us what the story is going to be far too early. Honestly, I think you could wait until pages 20-25. In that time, you could introduce us to your main character Charlie and show the reader a glimpse of the world in which he lives in. You just into the plot too quickly A brief aside, make sure you don't cross to far into David Duchovny's Showtime serious Californication. Also, it's just me but don't make your lead character too Hugh Grant-ish. Okay, time to nitpick. You introduce Charlie's maid as Marguerite but in her first line of dialogue you use the name Rosa without telling us why. Charlie calls her Rosa. Also when Rosa comes in she says the apartment is in a mess but the reader isn't allowed to see this through the use of action discription or Rosa's reaction to the mess. She only vocalizes her reaction and the fact that the place is a mess. Next to lines of dialogue I don't comprehend 1-Charlie Page 2 "If I get married, I'll make sure she's as incontinent as a hamster." 2-Charlie Page 4 "Well, two months is a long time in alcohol". I reread both and both do not make any sense. Next, a screenwriting teacher of mine beat this into the ground and I agree with it. You have long stretches of dialogue that need to be broken up. You lull the reader to sleep if you have long stretches of dialogue or action without breaking them up. For you, you need more action material, particularly in the cafe scene. Also in the conference room, Charlie is essentially being drafted into something he doesn't want to do but yet he is non-existent, be it huffs, groans or whatever. There needs to be action breaks in the conference room scene. Charlie doesn't have to speak but the reader at least needs to know he is in the scene. Last, another sin you commit that would give my screenwriting teachers fits is you end scenes with dialogue. You can do this sometimes but you really need to end your scene with an action line. Plus, one more note, in the cafe scene Jonathon says he doesn't need Charlie but is so insistent that he moves in with him. That can happen but you make it happen way too early.

My view. Hope it helps. Thomas

Alexis,

Yes, your premise interests me at least and I think it is very viable.

One little bit of nitpicking on my part is that obscure references are fine and the viewer or reader don't necessary need to get them. Except when they make the reader/viewer stop and it ultimately breaks up the scene flow (ie incontinent hamster one). I'm not saying pander to a certain demographic, just be careful.

As for getting into the plot, there is no set number of pages, in my view, before you have to get into the action. As for yours, you are wanting the viewer/reader to emotionally invest in Charlie so you need to give us a little bigger intro to him and his plight.

In my opinion, the 2nd act begins when Charlie and Jonathon are in the conference room. That is where your action and begins.

Consider it this way- Act 1-Introduction Pages 1-15 Act 2-Conflict intro Pages 16-80 Act 3-Resolution Pages 81-90

Of course, this is not a formula and shouldn't be strictly adhered to but they make a point.

Think about the girl who complicates Charlie's life. She will ultimately make the story go and give you material.

Your last idea is interesting. Good title too. James Dean's Seatbelt

If this is the one you have the most pages on, file the others for later. They'll have their time.

The conflict between Rachel and James will be the material and what to think about.

Linda,

Go to imdb and try looking via their keywords( ie radiation, nuclear and so on) see if that helps. I glanced but couldn't find any. If that don't work start thinking of all actresses who look like Naomi Watts.

Laura Harris, Sonja Bennett...

Ben,

Nicholl website says only hard copy.

Ben,

Is that in the old format or the newer less technical? As for reading it, it is my view to be "inspired" by it instead of "learning". One part of the learning aspect would be how the author(Is it Billy Wilder?)has the characters on the printed page interact with each other.

Also, remember that sometimes having too much information bouncing around can be as hurtful as not having enough. So, be careful to cherry pick your info. Remember you can always learn new things but you don't have to learn it all at once.

Michele,

What I was told by my screenwriting teacher is that you don't end with dialogue. I don't know what books say but I was told that you should only on the rare occasion end scenes with dialogue.

I have never ended with dialogue and if you were to ask me. I would say end with some sort of action line

I'm not arguing for or against. It was how I was taught by my screenwriting teacher Roger Margolis at the Portland, Oregon Northwest Film center.

1-I don't agree that dialgoue is the best link to the next scene. Winston uses the example of the line-"Nobody can be that stupid" and you instantly cut to someone that stupid. Well, in my opinion you have a gap there. There should be an action line to end it then cut. Example-

Someone looks at the speaker in disbelief or speaker confirms his words in his or her mind.

Action lines will only slow down the scene if you put the wrong one in Remember action lines don't have to be visible movement. It puts an end to your scene, even if your scene ends in a "Punch line".

Anyway, it was how I was taught by a professional screenwriter. It's how I do it and how I would suggest anyone who asks me. And it looks better on the page. But screenwriting isn't an exact science so it isn't a be all end all rule.

Action

Alexis Kanner would agree that boys can be named Alexis. I thought you were a laddie, Alexis.

Anyway, about Charlie, if you think of him along the lines of Richard Burton's character in Night of the Iguana or Gregory House, you might want to rethink some of your dialogue. Maybe substitute a word here or there to give the impression he's more world weary.

Of course, like I said before, you could use to give the reader a little more of an intro to Charlie.

Who was the host of top of the pops in the 60's and 70's? Wasn't his first name Alexis?

I was born the same day as Spanish actress Ruth Gabriel. Just one year later.

No Duran Duran, Simply Red, Oasis or Blur?

Alexis, try Jack White.

Though think very carefully how you present Charlie. I'm not saying you can't make him as you described, just realize that to catch attention you want to show the reader something that will make them interested.

On a side note, I think Alexis should be commended for this venture. It would be nice if we could present stuff on this site to be critiqued by peers. After all, we all crave to know the worth of our material. This is a writers website after all.

Bravo to you, Alexis. Even if you are a geezer, a bloke, a ... Sorry all I got.

First off,

Let me say I never called this a rule. Michele was the one who first used the "rule" word.

Second off, working on the hypothetical does not help anyone. With Alexis's material, I suggested it and I think it very necessary. Ending in dialogue leaves your scene hanging and does not bridge one scene to the next very well, in my view.

Unnecessary language in a script is only unnecessary when it makes itself unnecessary and gets in the way.

Just don't pat yourself on the back so hard that your ending bit of dialogue is so good it can stand by itself.

Walter

Bad advice? You make a vast generalization and call it bad advice?

Wow!!!

First off, I suggested he not do it. I never called it a rule. Michele did.

Randy Roberts previous summation was dead on and better said than mine.

Walter, no one is asking you to justify you way of writing, which you seem to be trying to do.

Plus, if you are a writer, Walter, I would think you would want as little wiggle room for your vision as possible so no one screws it up.

Scene transitions, Walter. If you think something is unnecessary then obviously it needs redone but it doesn't make the purpose wrong.

I'm not against rules of the craft. Screenwriting is like a sports game and there are certain rules you have to play by if you want to play correctly. I am well aware of that. I am not against necessary rules at all.

Screenwriting literature I don't like because these books don't care about the craft and the writer is only in it for money. And they present formulas that make people believe that, if they use the formula, they'll write a masterpiece. Plus, books try to limit the one thing a writer should always be doing, writing.

I come from the writer's stand point and one who has done this for a while. I was taught you cannot sufficiently transition to the next scene with dialogue and it is what I would advise anyone who asks me.

Walter,If you have some examples of your work, I would be more than glad to continue this discussion and explain to you my take.

Another aside,

I was also taught that you can't look at any old script and think "oh, it's alright." Because of editing for publication.

I'm not trying to be as pissy as Randy but his first explanation was dead on.

True, Michele. My screenwriting may like to think he is a god but I know he's not.

I went to Drew's script-o-rama and I saw what you saw. Again, don't strictly believe those formats because they don't transfer literally.

Again, as I said to Walter, show me where you've done it and I can present a possible point or maybe not.

I will resay what I said. It's not a rule but if I see it and someone asks I will say do it the way I previously said and I will reason out why.

Now, you know I was joking about Duran Duran and Simply Red. Alexis being English and all.

Jack White, Bob Dylan and The Kinks are where I stand.

Dear homeys,

I think a rule should be made that the word "POSER" should be eliminated from this forum. My god, people, you are writers. Can't you come up with a less juvenile descriptive term? I mean, why not "jive ass turkey" or "hopeless honkey" or "trick ass bitch" or for that matter "dumbass mother humpers", or "stupid Oregonian" as in my case.

Or watch a 70's blaxploitation film and pick any number of ones, depending how ghetto you think you may be.

I digress.

Again, Walter and Michele, I won't comment on material that's already been filmed. Because the printed material that is on display has been formatted that way for a variety of reasons. Alexis's material was presented and he was asking for feedback and I gave him what I have learned and what I put into use myself.

If Alexis doesn't feel an action line to end a scene is necessary after he re-evaluates his material, I will not hold it against him. I am not his co-writer.

Michele and Walter, This is a give and take process and I will direct you to my screenplay excerts that I have posted on moviebytes for they way I write. If you see something wrong, I'd love to hear back.

For shizzle my nizzle

Michele,

I would never say "What do you know?" to anyone who asked me. Nor would I look down on someone because they haven't been produced. That is not me. Not by a long shot.

Just because I have strong opinions about screenwriting books, it does not mean I will summarily write you or anyone who asks my opinion of their material. I do not like people who do it and I would never do it.

Plus, my distaste for screenwriting literature does not mean I am not still learning and that I think I know it all. That is far from the case. The amount of writing classes I have taken are proof of that.

As for Mr. Tobin, I never asked him for any personalized advice. You will not find that anywhere

And if you look at his previous posts, he is always selling something on each one. There is no post of his that doesn't come with a price tag.

Also, Michele, I call your attention to the fact that I commended Alexis for asking for input.

I wish there was more of this type of give and take.

Michele, Just to make sure, I didn't get something in my head. I asked my brother if the screenwriting teacher I mentioned had in fact stated that rule in class, because my brother took that class with me, and my brother confirmed that he had and so I wasn't hearing things

Anyways, The hardest thing for a writer is that it is a very solitary existence when you're not famous. A writer needs a sounding board to gauge our abilities and to learn from. When you try to fnd someone to read your work, they groan and roll their eyes. That doesn't give a person much confidence.

I've been there. That's why I will always take time and offer my time for someone.

As for me, I prefer classes to books, even though I know they teach from books, because the classes are active and provide a give and take and also peer reviews.

As for this who ending on dialogue or not, I was taught not to do. I don't do it and I obsess over every single word I put in my screenplays so I am comfortable that at no point have I put unnecessary pieces down just to conform to the rule.

There are exceptions. But again I would rather analyze and comment on your work or whoever elses than what is on a website, agan another strict guideline that was drilled into me. I've been on Drews-script-o-rama and I seen what you saw.

Cheers, Thomas

P.S.

Michele, never sell your ability short. Screenwriting books or no screenwriting books.

Dear Walter,

Thanks for your input. This is what I wish this board was used for and both of your comments are much appreciated. I was a bit surprised to see one of my titles up.

Walter, where you from? I'm here in Tualatin. I don't know how long it's been since you last scene Portand but it has changed drastically in the 14 years I've been here. On the hypothetical, if my career went to a higher level, I would have real trouble leaving Portland. I like it that much.

Walter, your preface is very good and I understand it completely. I also understand where you're coming from with your words and advice. That you took the time to do it is excellent.

As for comments on my story, I'm interested and I ask you to post. Even if to say, "Tom, you suck and here's why."

Anytime someone wants to comment on my work, I am interested to hear what they have to say, even if it is in the negative.

Your words were not condescending at all.

Dear Michele,

I thank you for taking the time for reading my work. Anytime I can return the favor, I would be honored to.

There is one part of your comments that I want to bring up and get your thoughts. To quote-"There are a lot of things in your description that are unfilmable. If an idea is something the audience needs to know, then you have to put that into action or dialogue in a way that can be seen and heard."

I was told this and am very aware and I have wrestled with this. The examples you give are good ones. I feel though even though they are passive lines, the actor or actress's expression is what turns them active. Maybe, I'm wrong

As for the sex scene you mentioned. It's silliness and not to be taken serious. It was born out of me watching a Japanese porn film and not the under-age girl thing that probably could be made of it.

Thomas

Thanks for your words, Walter.

As for the sex scene piece both you and Michele mentioned, it's not meant to be gratuitous. It is totally inappropriate but it is, at least how I tried to make it, how Theodora responds to try to cheer up her husband. I tried to make it a character response rather than a writer mandated scene. I never try to do serious sex scenes.

Anytime I venture that way I go for the offbeat.

As for pacing, your criticism is just. It is slow to unwind.

Michele

Theodora doesn't really want to divorce Justin. It is more as her way to get his attention. Believe me, though, the sex scene wasn't a throw in.

What you right about Theodora's character is completely true. I pose a question to you, Michele. Given her flaws could you emotionally invest in her nonetheless?

Michele,

In the greatest sense of the word, yes this is a heist movie but I don't think of it strictly that way. They want back what they feel is theirs.

I suppose me being male slants my view differently. But I like battle of the sexes relationships and how they play out in different settings.

One of the trump cards that Theodora has over both Justin and her father is the fact that she is a girl. She has to various weapons available to her that only girls have and uses them.

As a female, does a girl using her sex make the character more or less appealing to you?

My analogy would be that Theodora, Justin and Theodora's husband are engaged in a fight for supremacy and each combatant uses their talents, so to speak, in the battle?

Of course, that's not to say Theodora a one dimensonal piece of fluff.

Again, thanks for your analysis.

Thomas

Okay. Point made.

Anyone but me miss gothic style horror?

Heh Ben

Are you talking about scriptapalooza? Is that the one you entered? I entered it and when I saw the deadline extended I got annoyed. Because as Jean said it probably means notification will be later.

And that just sucks.

Ben,

Hollywood trends pertaining to what?

As for Dark Knight, it will be judged by it's opening weekend. It will open big because of the Heath Ledger curiosity.

P.S. I say the preview for Mike Meyers The Love Guru and I think it has a good chance. I'll see it

Ben,

Well, I have to disagree in one aspect. I think Hollywood is recovering to an extent. The 80's was the bottom of the barrel in my opinion. Cinema took a large step backwards and I don't think can be that bad.

Of course, current levels of creativity can be question because everyone is so connected to current and everyone does what everyone else is doing. That is a problem.

As for Love Guru, I love Mike Meyers but I just wasn't sure what he was going to offer. I think if previews play a lot on TV then you may not be wrong, Ben. People need to be shown Mike Meyers can still do it. Now, I'm convinced.

Sarah Marshall met analyst projections so it ain't like it's a bomb

Lou said r-rated romantic comedy. There aren't too many of either in recent times. As for romantic comedy, I have to say Sirens

I see nothing wrong with your list. Know however that Hollywood will always think PG13 first because of the perception of a bigger audience

Ben,

Don't take a course on writing for video games. Save your mobey and take a better writing course, not that I'm saying you need one just to clarify.

I'm not quite understanding your argument however. You say you're too old for a video and complain that it will take away box office from a comic book movie. If you take yourself out of the demographics for GTA, you have to take yourself out of the demographics for Iron Man. They are one in the same.

Besides, I liked GTA and I'm starting to move out of the targeted demographics.

I agree with Paula. Your sci-fi jargon drags them down

Careful Paula, they ripped Kyle a new one when he criticized Connie.

Connie, obviously you pissed someone off major. That's why they sent your submissions back. I agree with your sentiment and respect your opinion but the contest organizers hold all the cards and the only thing we have in our power is to ignore ones who don't pay its entrants some measure of respect.

Move on and forget it. There are plenty of other fish in the ocean.

Heh Ben,

Sorry, my friend, but I had to remind you of this one. Speed Racer pulled in only 18.6 its first week and was a lowly third behind an Ashton Kutcher film. You predicted 80. What happened?

Maybe, Ashton Kutcher should have been cast as Speed instead of Emile Hirsch.

Mattel is pissed because they did their largest marketing campaign on Speed.

Ben,

Sometimes directors get so obsessed with FX and forget to have a story. A thought

So, does this rule out a live action version of Thundercats?

Wait a second. Someone has actually optioned Thundercats? I was actually kidding. Little did I know.

Frederick,

I notice from some of your previous post you're a Chicago Cubs fan. Good for you. This could be our year

Patrick,

Always willing to help. My advice may not always be great ( Ask Michele) but I can still offer a new pair of eyes and perspective.

Proving that even the best make mistakes, I recently re-watched Raiders of the Lost Ark. The build up to the penultimate scene, where the evil Germans open the ark, Indiana Jones confronts the Germans in the desert and threatens to blow up the ark with a rocket launcher. Of course, the Germans have Marion as captive to balence out the scene.

However after escaping and eluding the bad guys throughout the movie, especially on the freighter where the Nazi regain control of the Ark and recapture Marion, our hero gives up and lets himself be captured. I mean, granted if Indiana had a plan to get out of the situation and ultimately best the bad guys, you could accept him giving up easy but that isn't the cas. Indiana giving up is so the filmmakers could set up the ending scene where the Germans open the ark. It takes a leap of faith for both the viewer and the screenplay reader to say "Okay, fine."

Part 2-Billy Wilder's Sunset Boulevard. It is an interesting watch and something for the wannabe writer because of the characters that inhabit the world. William Holden is the lead and the person that Wilder wants you to emotionally. However, when you come down to it, his character is not a likable one. The same can be said for every single character in the story. Gloria Swanson is a fading star who is no longer wanted and waits for her audience to come back to her. Though, it ain't going to happen. You feel pity but she has her problems as well. Then, there is Erich von Stroheim. He plays her butler who shelters Swanson's character and leads her to believe she is still the star she once was. Finally, the romantic interest of William Holden's. I forget the name of the actress but her character is engaged but ultimately falls in love with William Holden's character and maintains that love even though the perverse relationship between his and Swanson's character is revealed.

It is an interesting study in relationships and how the characters don't have to be so clear cut.

Ben,

I watched Raiders first then I watched Temple of Doom last night. Raiders is really story rich and something to influence writers who want to dabble in that genre.

Temple of Doom was surprisingly story-less. One action sequence after the next

It has been a while since I sat down and watched both so I was surprised by both in different ways

Doug,

We know he's not going to destroy the ark. The flaw is that you get the feel that the writer said, "Okay, time for the big ending.

But you missed the boat in that Indiana Jones is completely rooted in old serial heroes. The fallability of the character comes from Harrison Ford's portrayal rather than the writer. How different would Indy be in character if George Lucas got his way and Tom Selleck were cast as Indy.

Anyway, to get back to my point, one does not perceive Indy as a modern action, ie John McLain in Die Hard, but that is really not the case. As stated earlier, Indiana Jones is completely rooted in style from the 30's, 40's serials, which became precursors to the Die Hards, the Terminators and so forth and so on. Harrison Ford gives the character the depth and the panache which has made a place in everyone's heart.

A new trilogy of films based on the video game set to film with Jake Gyllenhaal as the Prince. One to make a you CG fans drool with delight. Okay, all you fans of the game, do you think Maggie's brother is good casting as the Prince? I have my doubts.

Heh Ben,

If you know in your gut that your story has value then pay the criticism what it is due. Re-read your lesbians and how they act in the world. Just because someone is offended means absolutely nothing. However, know that there might be some lesson to learn from the critique. Maybe there is something your doing a little wrong and the person is making too big of deal about it. Maybe not.

My advice would be review. It never hurts

Paula,

Okay. Maybe I'm a little dense but what makes you think Ben is not a Ben. I mean, he can sometimes write without thinking stuff out but I haven't found a problem with him.

As for his boosts that he's won contests, so what? If he has, that's good. If he hasn't, so what?

Paula,

Yeah, I understand that but do you really care if Ben has won or not. The only one who should care is Ben. He could post that he won every known screenwriting contest in existence but it makes no difference either way to me.

Granted I don't think you should boost about winning but that's me.

Heh Ben,

Explain yourself out. What happened? You're only giving bits and pieces and I don't think anyone, including me, understands what is in your mind.

Interesting, Todd. Your evidence is compeling. Nice job on the research.

Michelle,

Bravo, I get LANYC. LA & NYC.

Okay, I'm sold.

Again, I saw bravo.

Ben Lanyc, Rob Tobin...

Jeez, Michele, your victims are piling up.

Michele,

Not full bore but there are still many hours to live.

I'm lost here. Who we piling on, Ben or Michele. Or is this like Survivor and we get to vote someone off the island?

Now, now. We shouldn't pick on Michele for being Michele. Just like we shouldn't pick on Ben for being Ben.

I have to defend Michele though. Her posts are not malicious. If you can't take her banter and come back with equal wit, get the hell out of the kitchen.

Dear Gene, For the most part I agree with your last post. However, I have to assume on good faith that most all of us on this board are writers, in one sense or the other.

That being said, the point of the writer is not to be a boy scout or girl scout. Writers are supposed to be uncivil, sarcastic, caustic and snarkey. They are supposed to beat the water so that waves begin.

They are not supposed to run and hide and cry foul and say, "you hurt my feelings." When writers get hit, they hit back.

There is no crying in writing. There are only retorts and witty comebacks. My only complaint with Ben is that he didn't bite back when Michele bit him.

There is a place for writers who get along and play nice with each other and it ain't the entertainment world. If any of you want a nice stale world, then I say write commerical.

Dorothy Parker and The Algonquin Round Table have spoken.

That should be write for commericals.

Civil and cordial writers? What next? Truck drivers who spout poetry on their CB's? Baseball players who excuse themselves from the field of play to readjust their jock straps? Football players who apologize to the other team for scoring touch downs? Quentin Tarantino apologizing saying violence on screen corrupts? You don't have to be an asshole but if you want cordial non-interesting exchanges, go talk to your grandparents. Maybe that's why a lot of writing today is uninteresting, the writers have no interest in being interesting.

 

Okay question.

Why do school yard analogies constantly pop up? School has been over, some for longer then others.

Grow up!!!

None of you are in grade or high school anymore. You are adults. Defend your f@#king self. Quit f*#king whining.

A thought-

The idea of being cordial and professional is not the point.

The point is to be constructive and helpful.

Anyone can be as cordial and professional as they want to be. My neighbor is cordial to me. That being said, my dog has as much screenwriting knowledge as he does.

So, my peeps, HELP. That is how we should measure you. Not how nice you are.

Lisa,

I have the DVD but haven't watched Season 1 yet. In my opinion, you probably are sticking your neck out too far in calling it the best written and directed TV Show. Like I said I haven't watched it yet but it has awful tough competition to be called the best in those fields, at least in my opinion

Lisa,

I am definitely interested in the show and am sure it will be great. Do not me wrong. I don't know whether you agree with me or not but Jonathon Rhys-Meyer's (Spelling?) performance as Henry is of far greater importance to the show's success. If he lights the screen, again I Have Season 1 DVD but haven't watched it, the show can be a big success.

Early or late then age

The problem with that, Ben, is mostly all musicals throughout the history of film came from long stage theater runs. No matter the time period each musical you could name came off Broadway or some stage first where it proved too much of a financial lure, Momma Mia obviously being no exception.

And no some of the best films aren't musicals in my opinion. I like older musicals but that's a tough claim to justify.

Janet,

All the ones you listed came off the stage first. I don't know what the deal is but throughout the history of cinema a piece has been developed and gotten its legs first on stage, not necessarily just Broadway. The only one I'm not sure of is Barbara Streisand's version of A Star is Born. Anyone made in the 30's-60's came off the stage first.

Janet,

Don't get me wrong. I would never discourage anyone from writing anything.

Funny Girl was off the stage as well. Oliver was as well. The early 60's was a renaissance for musicals on the stage and a lot of them came to the screen in the late 60's.

I know Funny Girl and Funny Lady, the sequel, were based on Fanny Brice, who lived a very interesting life.

Best musical movie in my opinion was My Fair Lady

Janet,

My advice to you is to be careful how you write your musical. This may sound funny but some musicals have too much music in them (anything by Gilbert and Sullivan ie Oklahoma, 7 Brides for 7 Brothers). They interfere with the continunity of the film.

Good examples of ones that don't. My Fair Lady, Brigadoon, and any of the Jeanette McDonald/Nelson Eddy films. As a previous poster stated, you could take out the music and the fim stands by itself.

The best era for that is the 1930, particularly the Jeanette McDonald/Nelson Eddy ones. Watch those and I think you'll be greatly inspired.

Janet,

Oklahoma was Rodgers and Hammerstein. As was 7 Brides for 7 Brothers. Not Gilbert and Sullivan. My mistake.

Janet,

Okay, I imdb 7 Brides. I was wrong. Thought it was.

Mary,

The Buffy the Vampire episode is a superb example and I join you in recommending it and its construction.

Janet,

I feel it is wrong to equate the popularity of singing shows like American Idol with people's potential interest in musicals. Despite slipping album sales, people will always crave music and that is essentially what American Idol and the others are, a way to see live music, albeit terrible music (my opinion).

What seperates musicals from the American Idols is the story. Plus, it is my opinion as proof by Dream Girls that if you have a good story and good songs you will have a good chance no matter the circumstances.

So, Janet, it is my belief you should take care of what you can control and the rest will fall into place.

Janet,

And what I meant is the popularity of American Idol won't translate over to getting musicals made. American Idol, Dancing With The Stars, America's Got Talent are all old style Vaudeville come to life. They are not strictly about the music so much as the spectacle. After all, how's Clay Aiken doing nowadays?

And the diversity issue is really rather here nor there in my opinion. Dream Girls wasn't made on that it had black women in it. It was made on the quality of the material.

Plus since Momma Mia was wrote by two Swedes. I doubt there's very much cultural diversity to be found in it.

Remember, movies aren't reality so they don't nor should they reflect reality.

Sometimes, simple is best and most appealing to people. Factor in good music and you got bingo.

You're kidding, right?

Writing is my ritual.

Robert,

Why do you have to be tasered? I know you don't mean it literally but I'm curious

Dorothy,

Give the cat a co-writing credit.

The movie your talking about is Bueno Sera, Mrs. Campbell. The character of Sophie which Amanda Seyfried plays is supposed to be English.

Sorry Janet Drew Barrymore is not a natural blonde. Neither for that matter is Nicole Kidman

Janet,

I hate to reveal my source but Drew Barrymore posed for Playboy.

I guess Meredith Baxter's career can have a rebirth on another channel. Can anyone say My Breast the sequel. Or She Was Too Young the sequel. More movies about women being stalked.

With the movies Lifetime and Oxygen make, I don't think they do a very good job keeping people in their seats. I mean, who honest cares who is tormenting Valerie Bertinelli?

Yeah, it's the 1980s all over again. Thanks Judd Apatow.

That's an interesting observation, Heather, and very much to the point.

Patrick, in my view, dialogue is not a quickly learned skill. Sure there are styles that you can adopt but your characters dialogue, in my view, define the writer. It may only be in a subtle way but it still applys, that is to say if you don't want to write cliche stock characters. In my view, you have to go through the growing pains and evaluate yourself constantly.

If Mel Gibson is still an action hero then why not Will Smith playing a bad guy?

Ben,

I think you're being a little unfair to Will Smith. The action hero, in my opinion, that you're thinking of comes directly out of the 1980's and they have about as many dimensions as a 1 dimension video game. Those type are both tired and boring.

Also, just remember, high concept stories can become just as boring as regular ones. And more so, in my view, high concept equals no imagination. I know that sounds like an oxymoron but Transformers was high concept but it was crap. No story.

Eric, Ben

Give me examples of interesting high concept movies. Most of them is unimaginative. They go over already well trod ground. To paraphrase my friend Ben "They end up collecting dust in the attic."

Good example-Van Helsing, to an extent Underworld.

Dark Knight is not high concept.

Lethal Weapon isn't high concept

A great high concept movie is A Clockwork Orange but calling every movie high concept is like every writer calling himself an artist. More or less, it's a catch phrase.

Eric,

Seriously Raiders of the Lost Ark, ET, Tootsie? Raiders of the Lost Ark was rooted in old serials. Jaws is a monster movie. Tootsie is a comedy of manners.

I can only assume labeling stuff high concept is akin to what was once rock n roll is now called alternative.

Eric,

So, any story is high concept? Maybe, I'm stupid but basically what's being related are traditional stories. Was Shakespeare high concept? How about Ibsen or Strindberg? More so than an actual genre, I get the impression the term high concept is another meaningless label.

Well said, John. You summed up how I feel.

Jage,

It's sounds like a vivid piece. Just make sure you transfer it to the page.

Again, it's all in how it reaches the page.

Okay, normally, I wouldn't do this but I am fifty pages into a story and I keep getting stuck at the 50 page mark. If anyone wants to read it and offer suggestions so I can stop beating my head against the wall, it would be much appreciated.

Email me and I'll send it as a pdf file-swnthom1@yahoo.com

Thanks, Thomas

You ever notice how technology is taking away from a filmmaker's vision? The filmmaker doesn't decide how their film looks. Sony does.

Blu ray alters the composition of the shot and makes everything look false

I wanted to give props to the way this contest is set up.

1.The entrants read and review the screenplays. I like this because it keeps you active and interested in what's going on. The others you enter and that's it for several months

2.The reviews, though some may not be helpful, at least, you get to see your story through someone else's eyes and, in the process, maybe pick up something you missed.

I know a couple of othe MBers entered just on the basis off their familiar pieces of work but I encourage future entrants.

Plus, I finally finished above the not the worth mentioning level.

Ben,

I propose the horror genre needs fresh new ideas instead, be they from man or woman. Too much the genre has fell into gimmics and retreads. Saw was good for a while then it became a retread.

The TV Show Supernatural and its creator Eric Kripke are they only ones providing any interesting material at the moment.

Of course, Rob Zombie should be given his just due, too. He remade Halloween and made it good.

John,

It is not that I'm saying there is too much gore but what ones like Eli Roth have done is make the gore the reason the movie is made. The gore scenes interrupt the plot and instead of being a part of the plot they become the plot.

The same goes for the ghostly supernatural creatures or insects. The gimmick cinemaphotography disrupts the plot rather than enhancing it.

Jage,

Obviously you're treading on covered ground but I say write it. Ideas always sound like something else. It's when they come to life are they made different.

Woody Guthrie didn't like Bob Dylan's songs because he said to write about a whorehouse you had to actually experience the inside of one. Well, Bob Dylan was pure middle class. When he wrote, he was writing mostly from his artistic soul and not from experience.

Writing only what you know is pure bullshit.

Fiction never mirrors real life nor should it. Write what you know is such a blanket statement that is way too limiting. Sure, people will always call a person out for their lack of knowledge on a subject but that should never limit you.

Is Jage's idea of the rape bogus because he or she (Jage, you have to tell me which side of the fence you live on) because Jage knows nothing about rape? No.

Is it bogus because the idea has been done to death? Well, that is to be determined.

Sorry Orlanda but non-gorefests went out with the making of the original Friday 13th. Blame Sean Cunningham

Patrick,

I think we've all been lost at one point. For me, I always find I've taken a wrong turn somewhere, which could be what you did. You painted yourself in a corner.

Patrick,

Trace back. I've been through this too. You've done something in the previous pages to paint yourself in a corner. It's there. You just got to find it.

Janet,

The General's Daughter was a bad movie. Bad movies don't warrant interpretation. Even if they say all women are space aliens.

You mentioned All About Eve in your post. All About Eve didn't have a rape in it. All About Eve had Bette Davis, Anne Baxter and George Sanders

Janet,

The General's Daughter was a bad movie. Bad movies don't warrant interpretation. Even if they say all women are space aliens.

You mentioned All About Eve in your post. All About Eve didn't have a rape in it. All About Eve had Bette Davis, Anne Baxter and George Sanders

Janet,

I do have to respectfully disagree a bit. No subject is taboo for anyone. A man can write about rape. That's not the problem. It's the purpose that begins the gray area. Jage's original proposal, although having been done to death, was fine because Jage wasn't presenting the trauma rape causes to a woman. The rape was a plot device, pure and simple.

If on the other hand Jage's original proposal was to present the subject of rape and how it effects a woman, another subject done to death, that would be a different prospect, depending on Jage's knowledge or lack thereof.

But as always with fiction, there is a phrase that fits. It's called ARTISTIC LICENSE. The printed page is never, ever reality, nor should it be.

Art is never reality. Reality is never art. It's when you begin to lie do the two have any merit with each other.

Those who think they're writing "reality" are deluding themselves and have an overinflated opinion of their genius.

Ron,

Aren't you mentally exhausted by the time you get that all done? I mean, wow! The only thing missing is exercise and theorizing the reasons for why we as humans exist.

It's also ironic that you went from watching fiction(the Bush presidency) to writing fiction.

As for drafts, as you progress as a writer you'll need fewer drafts to perfect your prose but a constant strive to refine your language never dies.

Never ever think about what genre your story lies in. Throw it on the page and let someone else worry about it.

Walter,

Sure you need to know your genre and to a large extent it picks you. If you're writing in one genre, you can't break off to another one at the opposite end of the spectrum but worrying what genre your in or even thinking about it is ridiculous and completely unnecessary in the writing process.

In the selling process, okay.

Dear Lisa,

Don't ever be discouraged at all. You will like your first draft one day and think it's dog crap the next day. It's all a part of the process. The key is to never throw your script in the trash when you think it's crap and having a restless desire to fix it no matter how bad it is.

I guess it comes down to self belief in what you are doing.

Walter,

You're putting way too thought into this. Again, the original thread was about the writer straying from comedy to thriller (or vice versa), which is fine. I appreciate your clarity argument and agree with it but a writer, in my opinion should never wonder what genre they're in. Genre is figured out by other peole not the writer.

Eric,

Give him credit, Judge Roy line "You pay idiots to tell you how stupid you are" is a witty retort. Not saying I agree with it but a witty retort deserves it's due

Santa,

My only question is this is going to be a short? How many pages? Your logline offers a complex story.

My question is, if MTV is using an idea of yours (alledgedly) is it really an idea worth pursuing. MTV ain't exactly Masterpiece Theatre. So, if you and MTV are moving along the same lines, then I would worry.

Alex,

I did the free screenplay contest at the very bottom of the page. It was a five dollar entry for emailed screenplays but they seem legit to me.

Now Fred's going to get a swelled head.

But add mine as well

Matt,

First two are perfect. You want to be a little mysterious. the logline is like a fish hook. You want to make it just enticing enough to grab somebody to pull them in your direction.

Very well put, Terry.

I guess Jude Law's career ain't done yet. He play ARTHUR, right?

Dudley Moore will forever be Arthur

Which was the remake for Captain Blood?

Okay, I'm game.

INT. CLARISSA'S APARTMENT-THE BEDROOM-NIGHT.

CLARISSA, 28, brunette, cute, glasses, sits at her desk transcribing ideas from a note pad to the computer. A screenplay is the focus of her work. She stops and looks at the note pad. Unable to read the writing, she pull it closer.

Still unable to read it, she grabs her cell phone and dials a number. It rings but no one answers.

She redials.

CLARISSA Come on, Josh. Answer your phone

INT. JOSH AND SYD'S APARTMENT-THE LIVING ROOM.

JOSH and SYD, both late twenties, sit together on the couch watching television. They are roommates and the decor and cleanliness of the apartment is that of two people who lack basic nesting skills.

Josh is a bit taller than his friend and he has brown hair.

Syd has dyed blonde hair and is thinner than Josh.

Josh's cellphone buzzes from the coffee table but Josh ignores.

SYD You going to answer that? It's probably your girlfriend.

JOSH She's not my girlfriend.

SYD Could have fooled me. Josh grabs his phone and turns it off.

SYD (CONT'D) You tap that yet?

Josh gives him a dirty look and turns up the TV volume.

A Hollywood news magazine plays on the TV. The words ''Couple in Crisis'' appear next to the pretty female host.

FEMALE HOST (ON TV) As reported on yesterday's program, Helena Miles, star of...

Stock film of HELENA, 35, long, curly brown hair, Hollywood glamorous, at a red carpet film premiere runs on the screen. She has a cleavage hugging red dress on and flash bulbs record her every move.

By her side is her husband, GRAM, gray hair, late fifties, very important looking.

They stop and talk to a waiting reporter.

FEMALE HOST (CONT'D) ...the upcoming biopic on the life of Sarah Bernhard, has officially split from her producer husband. In a statement issued by Ms. Miles' publicist...

Josh gets up and flicks off the TV.

JOSH She's checking in tomorrow. Are you sure you still want to go through with this?

SYD Hell, yeah. I'm tired of being a fucking bellhop.

JOSH If we do this, there's no going back. We ride it to the end, even if we caught.

SYD I don't plan on getting caught. Besides, as long as we stick to the plan, what can go wrong?

JOSH Plenty and just remember that. Until we're on a beach someplace where there's no extradition, nothing is to be taken for granted. Understood?

Syd grabs the remote and turns the TV.

Ron,

I'm in the process of writing.

Yeah, little grammar problems and punctuation problems still need attention.

James,

Yours is concise and we get the hint of the story but not quite enough. I feel a little more would help me to distinguish your story's path

Let's give the love for the Cancers. July is the best month of the year. For one thing, it's never snowing or cold. Enough said

Water was a good a Who song, too

Thanks Janet.

You're not alone in being excited. This is the first time I've made a cut, too. Congrats to you, Janet. Jage and Michael are going to be pretty still competition. But good luck to you and Jage and Michael as well.

Nicely said, Janet.

Can I nitpick here?

Well, I'm going to.

First, Janet, I'm not sure how you can say there are no "true" white folks in this country, not sure if you're excluding the white people of European descent in this country.

Second, Evie, the comparison between Hitler and Nazies accepting Jews into their world and whites accepting black is completely misleading.

First of, social and economical factors play heavily in both. If a German official fell in love with a jewish woman, then the woman was "legitimized" in the eyes of Nazi officials.

A normal man in Nazi Germany could never get a normal woman "legimitized". If it did happen, it was via some official doing.

Second, public perceptions differ. While Hitler whipped up a frenzy against the jews, many jews passed themselves off successfully as "true" Germans. And if a jew was okay in the eyes of the Nazi party then they were pretty much safe.

We all know the history of racism in this country and know about the black people's struggle for equality. And unlike Jews in Nazi Germany, even succcessful African Americans are still viewed as black first.

Not taking thing personally. Just curious what you meant.

If you write while listening to music, what sort of music inspires you?

For me, it's The Who, Bob Dylan, the White Stripes that inspire me and give me energy.

Anyone else care to share?

All I'm going to say, Evie, and anyone will tell you this, is if you have too many spelling mistakes or your punctuation is not correct, you'll get rejected, even if you've written a masterpiece.

Evie,

As for the main purpose of this thread and, having read your story twice, I come in with more knowledge. There are certain conventions in stories you have to adhere to. And racism in post civil war Virginia is one of them. The two can be together but there are just some aspects you can't ignore completely.

Long running argument? Where was I during this?

Ron,

The verbal, literary influence is my prime motivator. Dylan is great for that and if I need a kick, he's who I turn to.

Janet,

Actually 49 made the cut. Count me twice. So obviously everybody's chances are a little bit better.

Interesting associations, Orlanda.

Led Zeppelin, Dylan for sci-fi? Interesting

Ron

Blonde on Blonde, man. Visions of Johanna and the immortal beginning "Ain't it just like the night to play tricks on you when you're trying to be so quiet"

I'm with Terry. Final Draft is easy to use, too.

Another good one to put you in a literary mood is Leonard Cohen. The Bob Dylan of Canada

Amen, brother Ron

Wow, Ron. Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed this morning?

It's all about getting in the mood so to speak. Literary musicians inspire me to stretch my language.

Ray Davies is another good one.

Of course, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, and Ray Davies are poets but they are also good musicians.

I was once told when you quote someone you have to give credit to who you're quoting.

That was me? I'm sure I was misquoted.

Evie,

You know the Doobie Brothers but you don't know Bob Dylan?

Janet,

Sorry but if your script ain't technically good you're out of luck. I understand what you're saying but no one's going to give you sympathy just because you're writing for a specific segment of people, nor should you or Evie expect any.

Lovers spat?

Lovers? Spat?

Evie?

If sex doesn't sell, someone better tell the French they built their whole cinema on a falsity.

I got to agree with Robert. I won't expect a miracle for 15 bucks but a tiny bit of magic will suffice.

Poor Patrick. Maybe a map would help? No, but in all seriousness Bridget's right. Sit it aside for a time. Unplague your mind.

Evie,

Try amazon.com

Patrick,

This has happened to me. Maybe you're missing a scene or a couple that would smooth the rough edges out. Another thing I do is start from the beginning and retype the story. Sometimes when it's all there on the screen, it's like a big jumble. That way if you retype from the beginning you rebegin your journey and maybe see something you missed.

Or a bad joke that's an obviously horrible joke.

Who trampled on whom, Evie? Who trampled on whom?

Eric,

No picking on Evie...Actually, scratch that. Go right ahead.

Yeah, good show, Mike.

I love "Love in the Wake of Adversity" It's too long and I wouldn't suggest it. Maybe Love and Forgive? is my pick. Maybe, "Maybe" even

Wow, Tim.

You left me speechless, not in a good way.

Of course, you could run it up the flagpole and see who salutes.

Janet,

Eric's right to a certain degree but he's wrong as well. First, a Mamma Mia was a musical. That includes singing. As well, Gene Kelly, Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers all sang.

I'm not saying you can't do a dance musical but your points of references were all musical which dancing was a part of, not the main attraction.

I'm not going to criticize your choice of genre but there are perception difference between a musical and a dance themed musical.

I mean, I have seen more than my share of musicals but I would be hesitant to see one that revolved around dancing.

But that is me and not meant to insult your work.

David,

Dialogue in second person? I'm curious how exactly you pull that off.

But like Eric said 3rd person is the way to go. Teachers, even in novel form, will generally discourage 2nd person.

David,

I agree with you. My last bluecat entry I got a very generalized review. It was hard for me to take anything from it at all, check that make that impossible.

Sometimes those can be more annoying than overly critical ones

Very good site, Orlanda. I'm wowed by the number screenplays you've written. Bravo.

Hey, Ron

Want to retract the blockbuster part yet?

Speaking of which, anyone have any thoughts on the Dragon Ball Z movie?

Proving once again, when someone looks up at the sky and says, "It's blue." People will come running in hoards and say, "No, it's not."

The problem I see with Gordy's want of David to post his evaluation is that maybe we can see how the reviewer did. But am I wrong that we also would need to see David's screenplay as well to really come to a complete decision.

The review alone probably is meaningless.

As I see it, David began by griping about the lengthy post by ant derrico and everyone began to dog pile on.

Maybe, David is bitter about a review. But what does David have to gain.

Unless he's running a screenplay contest and trying to steal Bluecats entrants away, then he has nothing to gain.

His comments have been neither been whiny nor amateurish, save for the anus on the sleeve bit.

A previous poster suggested, the reason the comments on David's script were bland was because David's screenplay was bland. Although condescending in its intent, the argument is legitimate.

Also legitimate is David's counter that, if a contest promises feedback in an effort to lure entrants, then it is obligated to give legitimate feedback and criticisms.

If David's story lacked something in the reader's view, it should have been noted.

Gordy's website promotes itself. I don't see the need of him defending his competition on this site just because of David's gripe.

On the other hand, I will comend him for caring about user complaints.

Ultimately, is David's gripe about Bluecat's lack of in depth comments going to sway people away from entering Bluecat, I doubt it very seriously.

Janet,

My personal opinion is to spend on another. I've entered twice and not really been happy with thei reviews, not because I was trashed, because I wasn't either time. The reviews weren't helpful at all.

Irin,

So, if you were a singer, you wouldn't want applause from your audience? the applause would just be arbitrary?

The proof of your genius was they were there to begin with?

If I'm not wrong, it's the same principle. It's not the "you like me or don't like me" aspect. It's the "are you awake out there?" aspect.

No one lives and dies on feedback but give me a freaking break.

Irin,

So, if you were a singer, you wouldn't want applause from your audience? the applause would just be arbitrary?

The proof of your genius was they were there to begin with?

If I'm not wrong, it's the same principle. It's not the "you like me or don't like me" aspect. It's the "are you awake out there?" aspect.

No one lives and dies on feedback but give me a freaking break.

Troy,

Check out Dave Trottier's The Screenwriter's Bible. It has your answer.

Janet,

Honestly, what you have probably would be better served being a montage, if you don't have dialogue in any of the bits.

Patience, Jonathon, patience.

Jonathon,

Granted your logline could be spiced up a bit. Ron's and Gene's ideas are both very good.

Yours isn's bad either.

As for the other part, you are not alone in thinking what you have to offer is better than what's out there and even what's being offered on this website. We all, whether we like to admit it or not, feel that way.

Again, I can only say patience.

I didn't get one either.

I feel cheated.

Sometimes, James, you just got to laugh at morons and not take them serious.

Walking the same exact ground as a previous movie? Have I been asleep or isn't that what Hollywood's all about? Can you really have deja vu if you're in an endless loop?

Stalker? Are you that famous?

I met Bruce Campbell once.

Wait a second. James asks who Timmy Smith is yet he already knows. I feel a sequeal to Usual Suspects coming on.

Oh come on, Janet. Where's my love?

Thank you, Janet. I return the love. If anyone deserves to be one of the 13%, it's you.

Just promise me, Janet. When you get your movie made, no Zack Efron, please.

Janet,

They are, if I'm not mistaken, trying to remake My Fair Lady.

I still haven't found a way to work ...and the superhuman crew come out and round up everyone who knows more than they do.

It kind stops the conversation.

Acting in a musical-

In my humble opinion, the best performance in a musical is Rex Harrison in My Fair Lady. You will not find better. I know Janet mentioned Audrey Hepburn but quite honestly Rex Harrison made the film.

Janet,

your definition of music friendly films is a bit curious because it would basically encompass all films, except for Ingmar Bergman.

Take for example Bullitt where a specific style of music was employed by the composer, who's name I forgot, to set the mood of the film.

Or how about Woody Allen's use of ragtime and Dixieland jazz throughout many of his films.

Films by nature music friendly.

Janet,

Few are better than Rex. Few.

Hey, remember though. Rex Harrison does his snging. Audrey hepburn didn't.

Well, you could say there is a vast studio conspiracy or whatever but the conspiracy reaches across the board.

Marketing is geared towards younger kids in almost every field. Most advert execs have the idea that kids have the most disposable income, which is why they are targeted in almost everything.

Needless to say, most of the kids they target are not old enough to work yet and don't actually have any income of their own, much less disposable income.

Gee, Ron, aren't you a big freaking ray of sunshine.

Do you regularly piss on everyone's parade or is it just a hobby?

Yeah, but the questions is-

How many times can you tell a dying man he won't see tomorrow before it becomes redundant?

Hey Evie,

What is it with people from Texas always wanting to invade another country? Must be something in the water down there.

I wouldn't get upset, Janet. I smell stink bomb with that one.

Evie,

Get up to date, girl. There are Mexicans as far north as Oregon. Get out of them cowboy bars. They rot your brain

I agree with Randy. You will have to explain to the reader why a country would allow such a play.

My question for you, Janet, is if you think you could come up with a story that spans a 24 hour period?

There are several factors, in my view, that play into making the ones you listed.

A. Dramatic tension and having enough of it because you are severely limiting yourself in a time frame. All the ones you listed have that. Strict comedies couldn't really do this. There are variables, sure, but the format seems to lend itself to drama more than comedy.

B.Of the ones you listed, good acting helps. Though, I will never praise anything Keanu Reeves was in for the acting. So, I discount Speed here.

Was Lion in the Winter set over a 24 hour period? Seems it took longer to unfold.

b.

Janet

Blackboard Jungle was released the same year as Rebel Without a Cause. Both were post WWII releases and the theme of alienation was first beginning to be explored in mainstream cinema.

Though in B pics, it was there since the 30's. Though, as opposed to aimless alienation, in the 30's and 40's the popular theme was for the youth to get mixed up in a life of crime.

Youth culture become more popular in the 50's thus the reason the themes came more to the front. Just think of the style of actors who became popular at that time and it illistrates the point (Paul Newman, Steve McQueen, Montgomery Cliff etc.)

Phone Booth has the dramatic impact to it as well.

Lest we forget the 1995 Johnny Depp movie Nick of Time

Go to a Neil Young concert then.

Evie

This from the girl who frequents cowboy bars deep in the heart of Texas and complains about white hillbillies.

If you go into a snake pit, Evie, don't be surprised if a snake bites you on the you know what.

I won't play the race card. I'll play the common sense one. How's that?

And tomorrow, Evie will be reviewing Bob Dylan, Likin Park and Tony Bennett's recent concerts.

Rolling Stone, Mojo, eat your heart out.

Jeez, Eric and Harvey. Show some more literary flair when you insult each other. You're writers not ten year old boys.

Somewhere Dorothy Parker is cringing.

No stirring, my friend. Just commenting.

Too often the sniping on this board turns more to be bitchy and, being purveyors of the English language that we all claim to be, Evie excluded, we have to hold ourselves to a higher level in all things concerning the English language.

If you're going to fight, I say make Oscar Wilde proud. Be bitchy, but bitch with wit and style. Don't be juvenile.

Plus, Eric, if no one in the literary world ever offended anyone, there would be no writers just, to borroe Heather's phrase, journalers.

Dear Harvey,

I was actually born in Indiana and live in a suburb of Portland, Oregon. So, I'm kind of far removed from England.

And Oscar Wilde was just an example and isn't really my favorite author.

But, please. Give me what you got.

Hey, Harvey.

That sounds like more bitchy whining or grumpy old man, I suppose. Bobette's on the up and up.

Dear Evie,

Your main character's military training is a part of the back story not the arc. It will figure into the character arc if you make it a part of it.

Ultimately, Jim is right. Though I disagree a bit that your character's ending resolution has to be profound. I mean, sure it has to be enough for your audience to be satisfied that the ride the took was not all for naught.

I took a screenwriting class once and my teacher said you have to be a little bit crazy to want to be a screenwriter.

I guess that's your answer, Irin.

Though, I will, for once, defend Evie. She is for real and is in fact a girl. I had trouble believing it at first, too.

Honestly, I think genre picks you more than you pick genre. If you're just beginning, the line is gray but as you write more and more, I feel a very recognizable pattern begins to develop.

For me, most of mine material is in the comedy genre. When I have stepped into drama genre, elements of comedy still remain.

Punctuation, Evie. Really? I wonder who pointed that fact out.

In my opinion, not being a professional reader, but if you take a true critical eye to your work 120 is the limits. For me, I go around 103-107. I that says you have a full, yet slim, story. And no one will cringe when they see that number.

Ian's right.

But being a writer has little to do with it. I think basic intelligence factors in. Anyone can spot flaws and be critical of them.

It definitely has to be a dark comedy. Any other style would just be silly.

I like your spin, Paula. It may prove more interesting.

I'd rather yours be done, Janet. Let's have new not more of the same.

Life, not just the film business, is built on ifs, James. Any Chicago Cubs fan will tell you that.

Janet,

Chick flick is a term I despise. It seems nowadays any movie with dialogue would be considered a chick flick. However, there is also a weird double standard.

Think of Sex and the City or Weeds and you would by movie standards call them chick material. But both have proved successful among both sexes. There are other examples on TV as well.

As for action films, in my opinion, are boring because they all are the same. Instead of a new idea, the same thing gets recycled.

I mean, think back, when was the last action film that wasn't a copy of another, both visually and in story content.

With Delta Force, you're really going old school there, Janet.

More so though, I was refering to the techno action pics of current. There is a new one, the name I forget, coming out with Gerard Butler, Ludacris and Michael C Hall, that I saw the trailer for and it was a rehash of every one of that genre.

I guess a prime example for me is the Resident Evil movies, though I'm holding out hope for the new one. The video games have more story and are far better than the films. Mainly, because they were recycling the Mummy series rather than making a Resident Evil Film.

Still, Bobbette, been there done that.

Lose the place names and gives us a little bit more. You're throwing a line to catch a fish so tell us why we should bite

250 pages? You're kidding, right? As for the logline, it's not interesting enough. Lure the reader.

Ideally a logline is a couple lines. Not much to work with but them's the rules.

For all the flap over how much and what sort of feedback a contest should give (ie what Bluecat does or doesn't do) that's been written on this board, I would like to call attention to feedback I received from Barb Doyon's xtremescreenwriting contest. It, in my opinion is very constructive while not hand holding you through the entire rewriting process.

Some of you have questioned others questioning Bluecats feedback. While granted I realize a contest cannot give detailed feedback that some writers may want, a little effort should be given to the feedback process to help the writer who ain't exactly rolling in dough to gauge his or her screenplay's strengths and weaknesses, or as the email that Barb's contest sent out to preface the feedback, "to provide signposts".

And thus I give you an example of full, in my opinon, feedback, not lip service

''The Crossroads to Somewhere Else'' is an interesting thriller led by a feisty ''superwoman'' protagonist who doesn't take ''no'' for an answer. Lots of twists and turns, witty dialogue and suspense, but the script's overwritten and long (129 pages.) Judge suggests cutting out the opening and closing bookstore scenes, condensing the rambling set-up in the Chicago newspaper office and getting right into the Nebraska relocation. Trim dialogue blocks; keep action lines to no more than 4. Clear up Yoyo's involvement in the murders; they don't make sense as written. What is behind Reilly's hostility towards Maggie? Maggie's credit cards repeatedly decline when she's trying to leave town, her bank account's empty and she has no cash, yet she's able to rent a motel room? ''Superwoman'' refers to despite being repeatedly punched, kicked in the ribs, knocked out and landing in the hospital, after a day Maggie's released and immediately punched, kicked, etc. again and yet she's still able to physically outwit the killer. Add mixing painkillers and liquor. When Mike calls her, why not immediately tell him she's trying to leave town and she wants her old job back with him? Maggie's risktaking and decisions are head-shaking at times (ie: when Carson shows her the photo of April tied up, she still gets into the car with him) Script needs a professional screenplay proof-reading service (lots of typos, words left out of sentences or redundant words, punctuation errors) Remove brackets from title; add screenwriter contact info lower right on title page. Move ''Fade In'' flush left. Where's ''Fade Out'' ? Remove ''The End.'' The title's a mouthful, but this spunky thriller shows a lot of promise, just needs work to make it marketable. Good luck!

Dear Evie,

First off, typos I will cop to. I write so quicly and sometimes leave out a word or mistype. The punctuation I'm not sure but who the hell is perfect with their punctuation.

As for you Dan, I believe a writer should take criticism from whoever wants to give it. Credentials neither make you an authority nor do lack of them disqualify you as one.

I'm not taking up Barb's defense because she's probably rich enough to have a team of lawyers for that but what I will say is that she or the person she hires to read your script is another pair of eyes, divorced from what you're doing. That way, they see something you might have missed.

This topic is getting off course. I was mainly refering to previous discussions about feedback provided by contests, mainly what has been written about Bluecats feedback.

Having entered Barb's contest, I am content with the whole process and her, or her judge's, dissection of my work. From the review, it is obvious the reader read the piece and gave legitimate thoughts about what worked and what did not.

And aside from winning, that is all I, or anyone else could ask for.

As someone who's stepping in the water to see what is, I would recommend Barb's services.

Granted I wish I could get her advice for free but everyone has to make a living and the quality of her services make the money spent worth it.

Math not your strong point, Evie?

Oh well. There's still your English teacher job.

It's called back story, Evie dear.

Evie,

By London, you mean England? Or do you mean London, Texas? Like Paris, Texas

Wow, Evie. A side of you I never knew.

Evie,

I don't get it. Crass, no. Appropriate, no but hey, Evie ain't the first or last.

Of course, to defend Evie, her comments are no more crass or crap than Sarah Palin's book will be.

To jump on Evie, Woody Allen would've done better.

James,

I'm not playing this but there are differences between Obamas children and Bristol Palin. Bristol Palin is an adult and Obamas children are just that children.

As for Palin's book, what rock have you been hiding under, honestly?

I am not defending, Evie. Personally, I like taking jabs at her as much as the next guy.

Her comments were just lame. They were neither crass nor stupid. They were lame. Period. You gave them more credence by responding to them than they were worth.

Evie,

As for your Letterman comment, I have to take offense for a fellow Hoosier. You Buckeyes are just jealous.

For you who do not know, Evie was born in Ohio.

Wrong thread Evie. You started this thread with a terrible joke that the other two took a personal affront to about a person they never met.

Remember Matt. Fairy tales characters are based on a starting mythology. When you start infringing on a story that's been written, say Disney's Cinderella or Sleeping Beauty then you're getting in the trouble area. Using a similar character from mythology I doubt would get you in trouble, whether someone would buy it is another discussion, because only the character as created by the particular writer is intelluctual property. The mythology isn't.