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SCRIPTMENTORS. COM (James Brunner and Elizabeth Stevens)

1. They cost no more or no less than any one else.

2. They read your ENTIRE script.

3. They don't try to change your story just the structure (if it needs it).

4. They are extremely open minded. If your script is a subject that they personally don't care for, they won't let it influence they're critique.

5. But, if your script is not original, WHICH SHOULD BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING, they will tell you. If it is original they will give you the cred it you deserve.

6. They don't seem to be influenced by anything except they're own EXPERIENCE in the buisness.

PLEASE TRY SCRIPTMENTORS.COM, THEY ARE THE BEST.

Dear everybody,

I have read all of the post on this thread and it doesn't really look like anyone answered Ben's problem. Wether (it or he) was real or not Im still waiting for a good answer.

You see I think I have the same problem he does (or he says he does). Im writing about something different and historically frowned upon. I knew that when I started 2 years, but of course thats the double edged sword. You write about it because its different even though you take chances that the readers don't care, they just FROWN.

But I also wrote it because now I think the audience is different than (they) think it is. I think the audience has seen every thing and they are allot more diverse than READERS think they are.

It is very frustrating when you know that SOME of the critism is pure bias. But in the two years, I have noticed that my script does keep getting better and better. I knew that at first too, if its GOOD enough, nothing else will matter. Its just getting it that way with biased readers thats hard. Sometimes, its hard to pick out whats useful and whats garbage.

Anyway, I think what Ben has to try and do is decide if HIS script about lesbians has a big audience. I mean isn' t that the bottom line? I mean I haven't seen too many that has been just about THAT and I really don't think the audience will be offended. So if you make it with allot of stuff that your target audience will like then I personally think you have something.

No pain no gain, remember? Oh, by the way, my script is a dance musical-romantic comedy about a cowboy whos crazy about a gorgeous part black ministers daughter from Chicago. Well, actually the cowboy is 1/8 black. The story all takes place in rural Iowa. Cowboys and black ministers daughter. Try that one, its not easy.

Nathan,

A medium message disconnect? You honestly think thats true? I mean that young people would not like to see a love story like this that combines country western, hip hop and ballroom dancing?

Im a retired dance teacher and I was born and raised on an Iowa farm-ranch. The love story is very loosely based on a true story about how they met. She is a college student in Iowa and they meet at a mutual friends country wedding then further it at the Iowa State Fair. So see, lots of dancing.

The comedy part is mild like Pretty woman, not slap stick like Steve Martin. And I guess the fact that I really thought young people would like it (both the dancing and the love story)has really kept me going. But if Im wrong about that too......

Terry, by the way, I basically have never been out of the midwest so why would I alias LA or NYC like Ron and Michelle? Im flattered though because he/she seems to be a very clever writer.

Jean,

Like I said in my first post, I have the same problem Ron described. Some coverage readers really like me and some dont. My clue that there is some bias involved is that the ones that dont like me, SCORE my ORIGINALITY just as low as my STRUCTURE/STYLE. I mean I've only been writing 2 years so I know my writing skills are not good enough yet, but come one ORIGINALITY should be my strong point shouldnt it?

I just started entering in contests. As a matter of fact, I didnt enter my main script (the first one and the one Ive been talking about) but I did enter Pony girl in Gaffers and Story pros which you probably reconize my name, I was right below yours in the Quarter finals for the family section. I was a finalist and received an honorable mention in Gaffers though. But I have entered other yearly contests that Im waiting to see now.

I was afraid to enter contests because of some of the coverage feedback I was getting. Its like I said, if they dont like me I get very mixed message. IE, too much racism in it, not enough racism in it. My cowboys too rough, my ministers daughter is too nice etc etc . See? Its just really hard to know which to follow because then the next one that doesnt like me turns around and says just the opposite.

Anyway I am pretty much sticking with the one I really like but I do think I need other feed back too and of course alot of the contests give feed back. Its just very hard, because Im not in the buisness. But I know just keep writing , I just think some of my rewrites were not necessary because like I said, I had to change them back.

I agree that all the advise has been really good and I definitely plan to use it all. I know that the solution no matter what is to just make my script so good it will get through no matter what.

But.....you really haven't addressed the real issue. I don't think. I mean My script is not things, in general that people don't like. I think most people do like dancing and they would like to see a dance musical that isn't in the ghetto for a change and they do like romantic comedys etc.

My script is a black and white REAL romance which if I wrote it 25 years ago when it actually happened I probably wouldn't even get one good coverage. Just like Ben's story about Lesbians.We're not talking about issues and things, we're talking about people.

My target audience is young people and I think THEY would like it. Ok maybe some would not go and watch it. But my script is basically all white which shouldnt turn off the young white audience (which I believe allot of ALL black dance movies do. But it should also bring in some black and other minority audiences because my leading lady is part black.

But the readers are mostly older and white arn't they? Are they really looking at my script without any racial bias? I mean I just have a very funny feeling that I would get allot better coverage if I simply changed my leading lady to gorgeous white instead of gorgeous part black. But then it wouldnt be different and it wouldn't be my story any more.

Anyway, my main concern is that I am wrong about the young audience. Are they as racially hung up as we were or not? I don't think they are and that's why I pursue this. But if Im wrong and its going to flop no matter what I have to go through, then I need to do something else.

Nathan,

Yes and thats part of why I thought nows the time I can do this. But actually I don't think either one of those two did very well at the box office. I mean I know were not suppose to think that way but.....

Don't get me wrong, Im not just getting it from just the white power side, I dont think the black power side likes me either because my script is basically all white except the leading lady. Thats part of the problem, my script truly has to be a joint effort and it is really hard.

Hairspray was very very silly and its main focus was not the inter-racial romance. Mine is not THAT silly and my main focus is THE romance.

Yes, you are right, the Body guard. Thank you, I forgot about that one. And thats funny because I almost started writing this when that movie came out and it did so well.

But you do see that its not easy and it is a little different than just writing about a subject people don't like. Anyway thank you Jean, that one is worth it. I forgot.

Terry,

Yes of course you are right like I said I know if its just good enough nothing else matters.

But come on, you were the first one to think my romance between a cowboy and black ministers daughter was so far out there it had to be a joke. So admit it, I should (at least) be getting somewhat high marks for originality no matter what.

I mean ok if Im a bad writer knock me on writing skills, character, plot, marketability but not originality.

No one has ever done a cowboy and a black ministers daughter dance musical in a rural setting combining country western music and R&B.

Anyway, I will take your advise on the coverage readers , Thank you.

Terry,

So, the "originality" category doesn't mean the overall concept, it means the "parts"? Ok, so with in my overall original concept there are unoriginal parts? Probably.

Although, in every (good or bad) coverage report I received on my script there was never any mention of (cliches, typical or been done). As a matter of fact, even the bad ones stated that my ideas were unique and different.

As I said before, the critism on the bad ones were things like too much racism , not enough racism, cowboy is too rough, ministers daughter is too nice....These things just didnt sound like (unoriginalty) comments at all to me. I mean I guess they could be, but they didnt say that.

I agree, there are some really bad "original concept" movies out there but that doesn't make them "unoriginal" it just makes them bad. It just seems to me that you're talking about other things (that I agree are very important) that don't belong in the "originality" category, like my readers did.

I mean I do think its possible for say, an "unoriginal logline" to turn out to be a very original script, for the very reasons you suggested. However, I really don't see how an overall original idea, like I think mine is, can be anything but "original" in the script, unless of course Im lying about it. Anyway I tell it or do it, its going to be original because the overall concept is. Maybe its bad, disgusting, sappy, simple, so on so forth. But definitely original.

Anyway, please remember (all I said) in the beginning was when they seem to just slap on a very low "originality score" when they don't even say anything was unoriginal about "the parts" let alone ''the overall concept'' of my script it just makes me suspicious of their motives. Wouldn't you be?

Ok, how do I find Barb Doyan, Im sorry I don't know anything about her and all of you seem to talk about her all the time. Like I said I do have someone I like very much but I do really think I need other feedback too. Thank you Janet

Thank you all so much. I was so surprised because it was only the second contest I ever entered and I didn't think I had a chance.

Oh, Jean I found Barb Doyon and I thought I would tell her you referred me, if thats ok with you. Anyway, every one else.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Janet Nadine Hogate

All three of mine are dance musicals and the only reason I started writing them 2 years ago was because dance musicals right now seem to be hot and....it looked like they needed help with something NEW.

But Im having a heck of a time getting read. I still havent received any request yet. But I did get an Honarable mention from Gaffers on one of them.

I entered a few more contests so we'll see how they turn out, but I really don't have high hopes for them. Thats why I just started entering a couple months ago. I just dont think I have a chance against other genres.

Funny Girl West Side Story Hello Dolly Oliver Paint your Wagon Chicago Victor,Victoria My Fair Lady Pajama Game Damn Yankees Annie get your Gun Guys and Dolls 7 Brides for 7 Brothers

All of these won awards so some of the best movies ARE musicals and I believe a few of these did not hit Broadway first. Although in general you're right.

But I agree that in the past 30 years it seems like Hollywood or Broadway for that matter, can't seem to come up with a new idea for one. Again, thats why I started writing 2 years ago.

By the way HOLLYWOOD, the new idea ones are the ones that WIN awards AND crash box office, not all these REMAKES and SEQUELS. Good grief.

Sorry, I didnt relize I could list on this board so my last post is hard to read. Here it is again. Easier to read.

Funny Girl, West Side Story, Hello Dolly, Oliver Paint your Wagon, Chicago, Victor,Victoria, My Fair Lady Pajama Game, Damn Yankees, Annie get your Gun, Guys and Dolls and 7 Brides for 7 Brothers.

All of these won awards so some of the best movies ARE musicals and I believe a few of these did not hit Broadway first. Although in general you're right.

But I agree that in the past 30 years it seems like Hollywood or Broadway for that matter, can't seem to come up with a new idea for one. Again, thats why I started writing 2 years ago.

By the way HOLLYWOOD, the new idea ones are the ones that WIN awards AND crash box office, not all these REMAKES and SEQUELS. Good grief.

O.M.G. I forgot Sound of Music, All that Jazz, Caberet, Carosel, South Pacific, The King and I, GiGi, An American in Paris, Carmen Jones, Grease and Singing in the Rain.

BIG, BIG, award winners.

And actually if I dropped back to before 50's theres allot more especially during WW2.

So see, Hollywood basically was built in a way, on musicals. And I think young and old alike still like them just as much as they ever did. THEY ARE JUST TIRED OF SEQUELS AND REMAKES.

And since Hollywood wont talk to any body they dont know about musicals, thats all theyre ever going to get.

I disagree. I have seen nothing in the past 30 years that was anything like the 30's and 40's musicals. Maybe making fun of them like I thought Pennys from Heaven did, but not, LIKE THEM.

IE: 30's and 40's musicals: Fred Astaire and Ginger Rogers movies, Judy Garlands ( Wizard of Oz)( Meet me in St Louis), Bing Crosby and Danny Kaye (White Christmas) All the Shirley Temple movies, Jenette McDonald and Nelson Eddy (Sweethearts ), Jane Powell (7 brides) Katherine Graceland (Showboat) Shirley Jones (Oklahoma), Janet Leigh (My sister Eileen) Bob Fosse(Kiss Me Kate).

Ok, Ill stop, but I told you there was a bunch. Anyway, "Dream girls" was about Dianne Ross and the Supremes who was a Motown girls singing group in the early 60's. How can it be anything like 30's and 40's musicals if its about the 60's?

In my oppoinion, whats going on right now is that Hollywood realizes, I think because of the sucess of the reality shows like (American Idol)(Dancing with the Stars) and (So you think you can Dance) that WE really do like musicals.

I think they thought for a while that we didnt or that we only liked rap and hip hop. But like I said before I think they realize theres a market out there after all and mostly all they're doing is remakes and sequels right now. So hopefully that means they will take chances on new writers again...pretty soon.

Oh one more thing, Ben, do you have any idea when Mama Mia releases in Chicago? I thought it would be this weekend but I cant find it anywhere.

I never saw it on stage and I always wanted to so I definitely want to catch the movie.I graduated from highschool the year "Water lou" by ABBA came out and it was my favorite song.

Most people at that time were so into rock and then Disco but I LOVED ABBA.

Anyway, do you have any idea what weekend?

July 16, thank you. I want to see this so bad. Its ALL Abba songs you know.

Anyway, Edward Sizzorhands? I saw that one time and I really liked it but Im sorry I dont remember any singing or dancing in it. Was there?

I mean it really doesnt take that much to turn a story into a musical. Its just that your characters have to have a reason to either sing or dance.

I was raised in a very musical family. My mother was a music teacher and church choir director. She also played the piano and her and my father danced allot. Also there are eight of us kids and 2 of us took dance lessons, I did for 20 years. All of us played instruments and the piano and all of us we were all in all of the church and school choirs, musicals, plays, bands etc etc.

So see, its pretty easy for me to think of reasons and situations where people would sing or dance. Its what I grew up with as entertainment. Just like rich people shop, ski, go to theaters. We sang or danced, its cheaper.

Really, even Paint your wagon, Victor,Victoria and Oliver? I mean I know they ended up there too but I thought along with Funny girl those were on the screen first. Well, thats a bummer.

That means I should be doing mine as stage plays first and I really dont want to do that. Theres horses in mine. Anyway, I know for a fact the newer dance musicals were not on stage first. You know like Highschool musical, Step up, You got served etc.

Also, I dont think the reasoning for musicals going stage first still exist. I mean, I know people still go to theatres but...is there really that much money in it?

I mean I actually kind of like that idea of not selling my script, just renting it out, right? But it seems like it would be just as hard to get a read that way. Or would it? Oh its really hard to know the best way to go.

Thomas,

Ok dont snap my head off because Im sure you know this but, I didnt have "A Star was born" on my list. I had "Funny Girl".

"Funny girl" was not a remake of "a star was born", which Barbara Steisand did do also. But "Funny Girl" was about Fanny Brice, a comedian, singer who started in the Ziegfield Follies in the 20's and 30's.

I apologize if you knew this, but it looks like you didn't. Sorry, Janet

Thomas,

I didnt think you were trying to discourage me, I was simply reminded of what seems to be a modern popular Hollywood attitude towards musicals in your first post. When you said No, the best movies in Hollywood were not Musicals. I was simply arguing that SOME of them were.

I adored My Fair Lady too but music quality wise it really wasn't that good. It certainly was good acting and a good story and I loved Audrey Hepburn. But neither singing or dancing in it was very good. There was one song that was very popular though and I really liked "On the street where you live". I think thats what it was called. It was beautiful. That was Porter wasn't it? Maybe not.

Anyway, my favorite musicals are the ones PACKED with good songs and of course (good dancing). Like,Music Man West Side Story and Pajama Game.

Those were also, late 50's early 60's musicals. So I believe you're right about that time period and musicals.

Nathan,

Ok, but I thought Cole Porter did just that one song for My Fair Lady. It was in the movie about him, Deloverly, maybe Im wrong.

Anyway, I don't think anyone would ever mistake "Damn Yankees" for a sports film. You're making a joke, right?

I mean yes its somewhat about baseball but the dancing and the songs in it are incredible. Guen , Oh I never can remember her last name, she was married to Fosse, played Lola in it and she was so good "What ever Lola wants".

Actually, Damn Yankees is kind of like mine in that (unlike the newer dance musicals) the whole story isnt about someone aspiring to be a dancer or singer,. Dancing is just what my people do socially, so the routines can easily be choreographed.

Robert, Im not sure you're right about Dream girls. I mean agree when they do a musical/biography like Ray or Walk the Line, the music is the focus because basically thats what they were famous for "those songs".

But the music in Dreamgirls is pretty original and the story, even though not unique NOW and to those in the music buisness. It is somewhat unique to us out here. I mean girls, managers, favoritism. Sleeping with the manager to get ahead.

We all heard about Dianne Ross and Gordy at the time it really happened. To us at that time in the early 1960's it was shocking. So, if they would have done the story right then, I dont think you could say it wasnt much of a story.

NOW, 40 almost 50 years later it doesnt seem like much of a story. Since it happens in the buisness all the time. But then it didnt or at least we didnt hear about it. You have to remember the audience was much more naive 60's and back than they are now.

Although, young people still adore music and romance, so come on lets make some new musicals.

One more thing about Dream girls, which was based on Diane Ross and the Supremes.

At the time that IT happened I personally was very relieved because I ALWAYS THOUGHT the other two girls were not only MUCH better singers than her but I thought they were BOTH prettier than her, they just werent so damn skinny......

Skinny ( Audrey Hepburn and Twiggy) was really starting to become popular in the 60's. Until then it was concidered VERY unattractive.

I mean, it explained allot for me. I just never under stood why SHE was the LEAD singer of the group, it just didnt make any since to me until I heard about the afair.

I mean I understood about the prettiest one getting it, BUT SHE WASNT. Maybe later, with all the plastic surgery she had done, but at the time, NO WAY.

Obviously, someone else felt the same way I did, thats why the play got written. I was in Junior high at the time and all of us girls went on and on about how ugly and terrible of a singer Diana Ross was compared to the other 2 girls.

Dream girls was wrong in THAT part of it. The other two girls were really MUCH better looking than Diana and the chubby one wasnt really THAT chubby. We all just went on and on about how unfair it was, until we heard about "the affair". Then it was"OH' THAT explains it. I think at the time this was quite an issue for their fans so obviously THAT was a STORY.

Casting Bionce as Diana was really wrong, she is way to pretty.

Robert,

Thats ok, obviously Dream Girls hits a bad chord with me. You know rude awakings and all as a teenager. I mean it was one thing to accept that the prettiest girl was going to get lead.

I mean if THATS all it was here it wouldn't be any big deal, but this whole thing suggested that Diana got it because she was the only one who would sleep with the married boss. That JUST wasnt RIGHT. And ALL of thier fans were really....P....d

Dreamgirls actually cleaned it up so it didnt make Barry Gordy or Ross look THAT bad but at the time, THATS definitely what it looked like. Poor Martha and Flo didnt get to be the lead because they refuse to sleep with the married guy. We were really upset!

ACTUALLY, I would bet any amount of money that the REAL story behind THAT was Barry Gordy wanted to get next to Mary Wilson and she told him to jump in a lake, so he settled for Ross.

They dont show many pictures of Wilson from those days but she was BAD. Theres no way in(you know where) someone would pick Diana Ross (at that time) over Martha Wilson. So I think Diana got the lead because Martha refused to sleep with him and Flo just got in the middle becuase she actually was the best singer and all she was trying to do was sing.

Of course they would never make the show THAT way and explain that it was just all about who would give up the booty. But like I said I bet THAT was the true story, but of course we will never know because Im sure Martha, Ross and Gordy would never admit THAT!

OK, OK, Im done ranting about Dream Girls.

O.M.G. I said Martha Wilson...ITS MARY OK? MARY WILSON!

Thank you, Nathan I agree with most everything you said except that Diana Ross was a great singer. I really never liked her voice she sounded like the high speed on the record player all the time. Her voice was neither clear or strong , it was like listening to one of the three chipmunks.

The other two Truly were better singers and Mary definitely was much better looking. Its just that Ross got the much BETTER BREAKS, than the did. FOR SOME REASON.

And I definitely agree that Lena Horne and Fitgerald were better blues singers than Billie Holiday. Who knows why they picked her. Probably because of the drugs. Hollywood seem to be on a kick about showing how drugs influenced allot of muscians...Duh

But Ross did do it extremely well, Ill admit that. Im sorry I just dont like her and I never have. I think you will find allot of ex supreme fans that way. She was obviously a blank and the other two weren't.

See, my point exactly, why doesnt anyone ever do a musical about Lena Horn ? She is gorgeous, a tremendous singer and worked her you know what off and as far as I can tell she never slept with any body to get where she is.

And.... she had to take a bunch of crap

I never saw the wiz, of course because of my dislike for Diane Ross. But as I understand it it WAS a good fit for her and Michael Jackson.

Its just like I say though. So many renditions of things or remakes or sequels to me are not very good. A few are and a few are actually even better than the original but not very many.

KISS ME KATE was a wonderful rendition of Taming of the Shrew, put to music.

WEST SIDE STORY of course was one of the best moderizations of Romeo and Juliet set to music.

HELLO DOLLY with Barbara Striesand was of course a rendition of MATCH MAKER with Shirley Booth but put to music and we ALL know how sucessful THAT was.

As a matter of fact I think thats what I would do if I didnt have any musical or dance musical ideas. I would take a very old story or musical and modernize it and put it to music. THAT seems to be the most sucessful and best kind of remakes, as far as Im concerned.

For example the Jane Austin storys which every one seems to love. There has been moderizations of them ie:

The one with Alicia Silverstone. The name slips my mind right now. But I liked it and it was definitely a modernization of EMMA.

But no one has ever modernized and put one of them to music. My favorite is PRIDE AND PREDJUDICE (Although wait a minute, Bollywood did that didnt they) well I would do it with a completely different name and totally so no one could recognize the story.

But theres also, SENSE AND SENSIBILITY.

Anyway, thats what I would do but it is hard to moderize those to a point that no one recognizes them. But it can be done.

For example: Pride and Predjudice. How many bleaking dances and parties did all those 5 sisters go to? Parties and dances? Theres a bunch of dance routines and singing numbers right there, waiting to happen.

So see? Like I said before it really isnt that hard to convert a story into a musical. IF of course theres something in it that lends it to dance and singing routines. Heres a few more POPULAR stories that could easily be changed and set to music:

1. Gone with the wind 2. Alice in Wonderland 3. Love Story 4. Pretty Woman 5. Breakfast at Tiffanys 6. Sabrina

Basically, any good love story can be turned into a dance musical.

Ben,

Thank you. You want to write a musical dont you. Oh Im so glad, maybe if some of you seasoned writers start writing them theyll listen. Anyway Im also glad you made me go look for those scripts again. For some reason it is SO DIFFICULT to find dance musicals on line. I really cant find THOSE four anywhere.

I did find West Side story and a few others at SIMPLY SCRIPTS, but theyre in the stage play form. But I think you can get the jest of how to set off songs and dance routines.

Basically, dance routines are just action sequences and you describe the dance and any other action going on just like any other action sequence. It doesnt look to me like theres any other markings for the dance routines although I do number mine. I know your not suppose to but I personally think the director would appreciate the routines being set off from the other action somehow.

Anyway, songs are just like dialogue with parenthisis (sing) under the character that sings.

Hope that helped. Remember Im just learning too. I mean I was in some dance musicals on stage many years ago so I know what old style stage play musical scripts look like. But screenplays are a little different and allot different from how they use to be written. so Im learning too. If you ever find those four on line please let me know. I had to go by older dance scripts.

Jean,

Thank you so much, I have had a heck of a time finding the dance musical scripts, I wanted. Thank you. And way to go, on the comp, I saw the thread. Ill say it on there to. You seem to do so well in them.

Oh, Barb raved about you. I was really bucking her about entering her pitch contest. I told her I was really bad at querys and pitchs and she said you were scared to do them at one time too and now youre a pro at it. She thinks allot of you, I think. Anyway congratulations again and thank you.

Thomas, I have seen so...many old musicals, cant you tell? I mean I don't claim to be any kind of expert but I have seen Eddy's and Mcdonalds "Sweethearts" and of course ALL of Rogers and Hammerstein's musicals, several times and many many other older ones.

But, I think I understand what you mean but for goodness sakes whats keeping a director from cutting a routine if theres too many. I mean isnt that what they do?

I write them the way I feel them. And again, mine are dance musicals, the dance routines can easily be cut if theyre's too many. Right?

CONGRATULATIONS JEAN, WAY TA GO!

Jean,

Oh this is wonderful, I have really been half hearted about this contest stuff. Because like I said I don't I have a chance against REAL writers. People who write dance musicals arn't real writers you know.

Anyway, this sounds perfect for me. Thank you, but.....I'm having trouble finding this years contest. Is it some where on moviebytes? I mean it looks like its just a conference in Nashville not a script writing comp.

Im sorry, Im confused.

OMG, I really hate to do this again Thomas becuase I think I just make you more and more angry at me. But, Gilbert and Sullivan did not make OKLAHOMA. Rogers and Hammerstein did. SORRY.

I understand the point you're trying to make though. Gilbert and Sullivan (HMS Pinafore, Pirates of Penzance and the Mikado) did have allot of influence on all of our 20th century musicals. Of course, so did allot of other 19th century composers.

I guess what I don't understand is why people like that even enter comps. I mean they obviously have representation and connections so what exactly does it do for them? I don't get it. The rest of us need these comps, they don't, do they?

Thomas,

Please stop it! Youre doing this on purpose now arn't you? 7 Brides for 7 Brothers definitely was not Rogers and Hammerstein.

Nathan,

I read somewhere not too long ago that country music sales was going down and down , not because of singers and music because they seem to actually be doing better than the rest. But something to do with downloading theft.

I dont really understand it but it sounds like Country Western singers especially are looking at new marketing ways and this could be right up their alley. I think plenty of country singers would jump on a chance to either star in or compose a movie score and sing in one of course.

Its REALLY good way to market their songs and it sounds like just what they need right now.

Nathan, Oh, one more thing, George Strait? Come on, Kenny Chesney is so much cuter and basically they're both baritones. Just kidding....Not really.

John,

I can't seem to find that article. Is there any way you could possibly copy and paste some of it in here. I agree anything with Astaire in it definitely rocks.

But....I'll have to see it before I can agree that someone that wrote Buffy the Vampire slayer can come up with a Real musical.

I mean like I've been trying to tell you guys all along I don't think its hard for non musicians/dancer writers to write a dance or musical script. You just have to give your characters a reason to sing or dance or having a situation that is conducive to singing or dancing.

ie: parties,dances, balls, proms, fairs, weddings, dance recitals, dance clubs etc etc. And the choreographers will choreograph them, they just need an outline.

As a matter of I was told by a couple of coverage readers that I was TOO detailed on the dancing outline so I really had to tone it down until it looks to me like even a non dancer/singer could do it.

HOWEVER, if any of you do decide to try it. I would suggest you find a singer or a dancer to look it over. I dont think they have to be composers or choreographers but trained in music or dance so they can tell you if and why something can or can't work.

It just seems to me that everyones looking for GOOD STORIES and experienced writers first so you seasoned writers would be perfect.

Just find a singer or dancer to check your routines out first. Just try it. I just really cant stand all these remakes and sequels.

FOR EXAMPLE: Everyone knows PRETTY WOMAN right? Well lets turn it into a dance musical.

1st dance routine: Remember the very first scene? Wasn't it a party aT the attorneys house? Easy, have an intro dance routine, I don't know, they were all rich people maybe they all went to Arthur Murays and they can all rhumba,MAMBO or tango. Let the choreographers have a ball.

2nd dance routine: The two hookers are in a club fighting about rent money. Oh let me see a night club, rappers, Hip hop dance routine in the backround. Thats a tough one.

3rd song/dance routine: The hookerS are all out on the steet corner. Another good possibility something like "Hey big spender" song/dance routine. Of course the song should be original but the producers will get the drift.

See, its pretty easy. Theres 3 routines right there just from the story just the way it is. Actually I think theres alot of movies these days that could have easily been dance musicals, but weren't. Try it its easy.

Ben,

I knew it. You started this thread because you hate musicals and thought you would get allot of fighting about it. Well the fact is musicals are back and they are very popular. Its just that Hollywood is afraid to try NEW ones.

Im trying to encourage people to try writing them because it looks to me like a big market right now. Havent you seen all the sucess of the reality shows like "Idol" and "Dancing with the Stars". Good grief, you writers can do it just as well if not better.

Its true theres a right way and a wrong way that they will just bomb. But I think people like ANY kind of dancing although I think couples dancing and diversity is kind of key but other than those two things skys the limit.

Ben,

Ok, sorry. I guess it just sounds funny to me to call Hairspray a great musical. So I just assumed you were making fun, sorry again.

Dorothy,

How long has Mama Mia been on broadway? Im thinking 20 years but I may be wrong, do you know? I just faintly remember hearing things about it back then. Anyway, Im a big ABBA fan, always have been so Im looking forward to the movie too. Waterloos in it right.

My sister and I just always thought THAT was a perfect jump roping song. You know, kinda like Bonanza is a perfect Baton twirling song and Keep Knocking by Little Richard is a perfect trampoline acrobat song.

Ben,

What are you talking about? That's what dance musicals have been for the past 20 years.

I saw an interview Fred Astaire did before he died and he said that he watched Soul Train all the time and would get up and try to dance just like them.

Ok, my opponion of breakdancing and Im probably going to get bood off the board but I dont consider it dancing just like I don't consider Rapping singing. But....it is extremely athletic and difficult to do and I do like it just like I like gymnastics and aerials.

To me dancing is couple dancing. Wether its contemparary ballet, hip hop,ballet, jazz, ballroom dancing, latin dancing, country dancing etc etc. Couples dancing together in some style or another is dancing.

Now, there is performance dancing like tap, breakdancing, clogging, etc that is somewhat dancing but to me, not really. I mean I like clogging and tap, SOME flamingo but I just don't really call it dancing. If you are not interacting with someone else how is that really dancing?

Dancing , I believe was originally a social art entertainment not a performance one so it was definitely couples.

My other issue with hip-hop, breakdancing is that it is more male oriented than female and purely because of the very athletic/strenth nature. But, MTV a good example, it is also somewhat degrading to women. The subculture is somewhat degrading to women too and Im not crazy about it. I like women being put on pedestals in dancing not being groped over.

OK go ahead everybody, Ben did this so I suffer your rath.

Orlanda,

Basically, THATS exactly what happene to me two years ago. I mean I never in my wildest dreams thought I would be trying to write a script. Then suddenly I had (what I thought) was a most perfect, brillant idea for a dance musical so I started writing it.

I mean of course I had all this music and dance backround but please believe I NEVER had any Hollywood desires. Its just I thought my idea was so perfect. Too bad I cant get Hollywood to see it.

Anyway, when it does strike you, please let me know if I can help. Heck, if I cant get mine read or sold at least maybe I can help someone else.

Patrick,

I had allot problems with conflicting instruction from different readers too. And something I figured out, with the help of these MB's by the way, is to take what sounds right and do it the way I WANT to and not necessarily the way they suggest.

For example, I write dance musicals and one of the issues recently was that I didnt tie the dancing in with the Protagonist conflict. So I did it. But not exactly the way they suggested. But the way I thought it should be. I mean I think thats the part thats tricky.

When they say somethings wrong they usually suggest a way to fix it. But, they've only read your script once so they don't know it like you do and they don't really know what you wanted so basically you have to find a way to make the corrections without compromising your story. Sound right?

OK OK, Im back. I was on vacation last week which is why I did SO MUCH writing on this thread, besides the fact Im so passionate about musicals...duh. Anyway,

John,

Ok, two problems I have with this musical idea. One is that it is MORE SUPERNATURAL STUFF. I mean I like a little off the charts make believe as well as the next guy. But, for good next a musical/dance musical is make believe enough without making it even more so.

And two, 2004? What a bummer. I started writing my BABY in August of 2006 so THAT MEANS I HAVE TO WAIT TWO MORE YEARS? Good grief. A person could get really discouraged with this writing couldn't they?

Patrick,,

A cooking music show. See? Reality TV is going over the edge. I mean I understand it in singing and dancing's case because they can see its sucessful but they cant seem to figure how to translate that into a modern musical without flopping. I really thinks thats been the problem in the last 20 years. They know it works they're just not sure what about it works.

I mean they know they can't make them like they did before (30's,40's,50's and 60's) but they seem to not be able to figure out why.

I mean just look at they reality singing and dancing shows that ARE REALLY sucessful. The singing and dancing in those shows are just about as old fashioned and sappy as they come. But what they don't seem to realize is its also VERY diverse too.

Old dance and singing musicals werent. They can still make them old fashioned like that, they just have to make them racially and culturally diverse, Duh...like we all are now.

I've had several people tell me to do things to my script that would make it just like every other dance musical too but I won't do it. Like I said you have find the hidden meaning in what their complaint is. What they are telling you is something doesn't sound or feel right or its empty in someway. Which of course you want to fix right? So the trick is finding out what the REAL problem is as it APPLYS to YOUR script.

Thomas,

What in the blank...are you talking about, again? Of course the difference between American idol and musicals is the story. Duh. And its not bad music for goodness sakes they are tremendous singers and the songs they pick are old songs which I personally love.

I brought up Idol and the reallity dance shows because the truly are extremely popular. Check out their ratings sometime. I never said people don't always crave good music and musicals, they obviously do.

I said Hollywoods having a hard time fguring out how to cash in on it because they can't make musicals like they use to (it doesnt work). But the shows seem so much like the old style musicals (the old songs and dances they do). That they think it should it work.

I simply said I think its because they HAVE TO BE culturally diverse in musicals now a days to suceed and they seem to resist that. They seem to want to go all one group or the other and they cant. Look at the musicals that suceed BIG these days. They are very diverse. Old classic musical werent. The old style works but the non diversity doesnt.

THATS all that I said. Good grief.

Thomas,

My point exactly. Many of the ex Idols and ex "So you think you can Dance " winners are not working. Duh. Because, Hollywood doesnt know how to write musicals anymore.

Dream girls is "all black". Like I said ALL one group or color or ALL the other group or color doesn't work any more. Diversity means MORE than one not just black.

Its my understanding Mama mia takes place in Greece and the fiance to the daughter is greek. I haven't seen the movie yet but THAT sounds some culturally diverse to me.

My point is that musicals usually are directed at the younger, movie going audience and nowa days THAT audience is very culturally and racially diverse and want to see DIVERSE movies.

FOR EXAMPLE: Let's look at the musicals that have been very sucessful lately. Highschool Musical, Hairspray, Step up, Save the Last Dance (I was wrong before, the first one of these was very sucessful)and Take the Lead.

Now...what do all of these ALL have besides good music and dancing and a not so hot story? ANSWER: Cultural and Racial diversity. THOMAS, you can't say the reason these were so sucessful was because they had a great story because they didnt. Most of them have very simple and common stories. BUT....they did all have RACIAL DIVERSITY IN THEM.

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: I will bet anyone on this board that FOOTLOOSE (a very white but "good story" 80's dance musical, that they are presently trying to remake will not do anywhere near as well as the others I mentioned. Even though they are obviously putting allot of money into it, its not going to help unles somehow they diversify it somewhat. Like I said, all any one group doesnt work these days. Our wyouth is too diversified themselves and want to see something they can ALL relate to.

Its funny because Hollywood does seem to realize that in all other genres. ie Action, suspense, thriller, comedy, family etc etc. But they seem to be very backwark when it comes to romance and musicals. Well probably because musicals have to be romances, its a rule you know. ha ha.

Anyway, like I said before on another thread. Its not our youth that cant handle diversity. THEY ARE DIVERSITY!Its Hollywood readers and producers that run everything. Well, until they get with it, they're simply not going to make the money on these things that they could. Whatever.

If I was Hollywood I certainly would be trying to make MUCH MORE musicals (singing and dancing) right now because they are REALLY HOT right now. They just have to make them culturally diverse. And if they were REALLY GOOD STORYS TOO, like you seasoned writers could do. Man they would hit big time.

IT WORKS HOLLYWOOD do it.

Nathan is really good isn't he. "Arguments for the Defense" is by far the best.

Please don't don't butcher Jane Austin's title once again. It's been done enough and from what how you described your story it really doesn't fit at all.

I think theres plenty of ways to incorperate romance into the legal system . "Defenseless Heart" etc etc. Just please leave my most favorite love story of all, alone. Thank you

John,

Thank you, I'll check it out.

I don't know the first thing about filming. I mean, years ago I was in some stage musical productions but I've never had anything to do with pictures. I mean I've filmed my son's basketball games on a camcorder but that's it.

I already know that the Iowa state fairgrounds(where the majority of my script takes place) would hardly charge anything at all to film there because they are always trying to find ways to promote our fair and hardly anyone films anything in Iowa.

You know, that just gave me a thought. The fair is coming up this Aug.7 and actually the type of dancing Im talking about in my script is always at the fair. I mean of course its not as good as I had in mind but....

O.M.G. maybe what I could do is just do some selective filming of the fair that would look allot like a clip from my script. I mean all the locations in my script are all real locations at the fair ( the horse pavilion, the Bill Riley stage, Diamond Jacks...) O.M.G. let me think.

Then I could put it on the net, Where?

Ben,

Walked out, why? See... there are so many good singers and dancers that could easily do those parts I dont understand why Hollywood always thinks they have to be named actors or actresss. They just ruin a perfectly good musical that way. Good grief.How did Meryl do?

No, I didn't see it yet, My son had tournaments this weekend. His team won, by the way. Why did they walk out? Please tell me.

Janet

Mary,

I don't have a website, what do you mean by that? I honestly hadn't thought of that before but the more I think about the more I like.

Hollywood, I think has a very a bad idea about idea, I think and if nothing else it would give me a chance to show how beautiful it is here and how huge and old and ornate our State fair is.

Please explain some of this filming and putting on the Net stuff to me.

Thank you Janet.

Mary,

Sorry, I wrote too fast because I was so excited. Here it is again with fewer errors.

I don't have a website, what do you mean by that? I honestly hadn't thought of that before but the more I think about it the more I like it.

Hollywood, I think, has a very a bad idea about Iowa. So if nothing else it would give me a chance to show how beautiful it is here and how huge and old and ornate our State fair is.

Please explain some of this filming and putting on the Net stuff to me.

Thank you Janet.

Mary,

There is a dance group here, Miss Kitty dancers, that perform at the fair every year. The dancing they do is partially what I have in my script and ONE of the managers at MISS KITTYS is a good friend of mine so I know I can film them at both the fair and at their bar.

The camera thing will be tricky I have a camcorder that Im practicing with now but I know I will have to get something else to use to download etc. We have three colleges here in town so maybe you're right I can get some students to help, actually my son's a student , maybe he can find someone for me.

Anyway, I know some people on the fair board, Im sure they would love a documentary of the fair. I don't suppose you are old enough to remember the "State Fair" movie in the 40's by Rogers and Hammerstein, well that was the Iowa State Fair and it is just about the biggest thing that happens here so the board does every thing they can to promote it.

So, ok, I gotta go check all these things out. Mary, thank you so much. I honestly never thought of this at all I was just trying to write a good script but I think you're right, one of my stumbling blocks SHOWING Hollywood that the Iowa State fair is a good idea for a musical, not contantly telling them. I think they are all too young now to remember. Ill be back.

Julie,

Thank you so much, thats a wonderful suggestion, Ill have him do it tomorrow. I have to hurry though because like I said, the Fair starts in just two weeks.

I mean I have a tripod and I could film with what I have I guess and convert later? I don't know my cameras at least 5 years old so Im sure there will be some problem with that and I should really use better equiptment. I just don't know if I can do it that soon.

Anyway, thank you both so much for the help. One way or another Im going to do it because I think its a marvelous idea. Thank you, again.

Hey Ben, You never told me why people walked out on Mama Mia. Im sorry its important to me because if Mama Mia does really well thats good because then people will be more receptive to NEW musicals.

I mean I know it was on broadway first but its definitely different than most musicals/dance musicals these days (just like mine is). So I really hope it does REALLY REALLY WELL. Please let me know what happened.

Thank you Janet

Orlanda ,

Congratulations. I feel like such a idiot offering you help. I should be getting help from you.

But on second thought, horror flicks give me night mares. I would be a mess trying to write one.

Really, really good luck! Hey what about a singing, dancing zombie? Oh wait, they've done that haven't they? AND I JUST LOVED THAT MOVIE.

Oh wait, for Thomas and Ben,

Movie/ Broadway Musical. THAT was definitely a big one.

Congratulations again Orlanda!

"LET'S DO THE TIME WARP AGAIN"

Jean,

Is that true? I never knew that but of course it makes sense because it all happened that night and it was Poker night.

I was never a Tennessee Williams fan and not because of his earthy style. As a matter of fact I liked Erkine Caldwell " God's Little Acre" better and he was even more earthy.

But Williams seem to be the first that really started portraying women as complete nuerotic messes and it seem to start a real trend that hasn't stopped.

I mean it just really isn't fair that so many women driven stories and movies are written by men and not vice versa.

It just seems like Tennessee started that because before then I don't think we really saw books or movies ABOUT women that were written by men.

And Im sorry, I simply didn't like his view of us. Hey, did you know he had a long time affair with Annie Magnani and thats who he based Rose Tatoo on. Now, that one I liked.

"You no like slob? I like slob".

Sorry, sorry,sorry, that quote wasn't from Rose Tatoo it was from Anna's movie with Anthony Quinn and Tony Francioso "Wild is the Wind". And it definitely wasn't written by Tennesee.

See....I can't think of any of HIS that I liked his view of women.

O.M.G. BEN YOU ARE SUCH AN ASS......

I've never in my entire life had as much fun at a movie theatre as I just did at MAMMA MIA! THAT MOVIE WILL EASILY MAKE TEN TIMES AS MUCH AS THEY SPENT ON IT.

FIRST of all, there was an empty seat in the house. I was late so I know. AND I WAS LATE BECAUSE SOMEONE SAID IT WASN'T THAT BIG OF DEAL.

SECOND, who in the he.... cares if PB doesn't have great singing voice, he can carry a tune an ABBA SONG doesnt need a powerful voice, its the harmony and the tune that was so great about ABBA, no power voices. Abba by the way didnt have powerful voices. They had great harmony. IE the best song in the whole show was The mothers two friends singing the song that sounds like FERNANDO but it wasn't Fernando, that wasn't in the movie at all but OMG all the other best ABBA songs were.

THIRD: LEAVE THE THEATRE. Goodgrief no one in my theatre wanted to leave when the screen went blank. Of course by then we were ALL ALL over the theatre dancing with each other to WATERLOO. SAVING THAT ONE FOR THE END WAS PURE GENIUS. WATERLOO LIKE I SAID BEFORE WAS ABSOLUTELY MY FAVORITE AND I THINK EVERY OTHER WOMAN OVER 40'S.

Of course when I got out of the theatre and realized there wasn't a man or anyone under 40 coming out then it all made sense. THEY FINALLY MADE A MOVIE FOR US OLD WOMEN. IT WAS WONDERFUL.

Jean,

I apologize I swiftly read on IMBD trivia for Mr. Williams that he had a 24 year friendship with Anna Magnani which is why she was in a couple of his movies. Rose Tatoo being one of them. I also swiftly assumed that meant they had an affair of sorts and that was wrong of me it could had easily been just a friendship. Im sorry.

However, wether Tennessee Williams understands women better than we understand ourselves was not my complaint about him. My complaint was that his stories always depict us negatively and I didnt see him always depicting men so negatively. For example. His big ones.

A Streetcar named desire - Blanche was middleaged, drunk, sexually frustrated pretensious mess.

Suddenly last summer: Both Katherine Hepburn and Elizabeth Taylors parts were pathetic. Montgomery Cliffs was the only good one in the whole movie and let me see , he was male.

Sweetbird of Youth: Paul Newman and Geraldine Page. A middleaged wash uped movie star.

Summer Smoke: Lawrence Harvey and Geraldine Page. Yet another pathetic woman chasing after a young yunk who oh let me see chases the TRAMPY MEX ICAN GIRL.

Glass Managerie: BOTH the mother and the daughter were pathetic.

Must I go one? I mean Ok if Tennesse knows us so well I guess I would have preferred he knew MEN better and made them look bad instead of us. Sorry, I didnt like his idea of women.

Ok, everybody, I have a question because I never went to the broadway production. But I have a definite feeling that the lead women in this were actually greek themselves (in the original version) along with the fiance. Instead of American and blonde that is.

I mean maybe the producers thought they had to have a couple of Americans in it to sell it, but come on, if in the original version they were Greek why not at least use greek americans?

I mean I could be way off base but it seems to me I saw a poster of MAMMA MIA at the Civic Center when the show was in town and the girl on it, definitely looked Greek and wasn't blonde.

Actually, Nathan none of the cast were singers. I thought all of their voices were weak. But I guess what i meant was that Abba wasn't really monster singers either.

They just had wonderful harmony and used harmony allot. I love songs with harmony which is why I loved ABBA. So to me, the strength of the voices, in this case, didn't matter. But I will agree Pierce probably had the worst and should not have been singing solo .

But again, I don't think anybody in MY theatre cared how bad his voice was. Believe me , Im usually a stickler for bad singing and I didn't care in this case, AT ALL.

Nathan,

Im really curious, were the two leading female roles in this originally witten as greek women? I mean the story that I guess this whole musical was based on was one which Gina Lolabridgada played back in the 60's and she was definitely a native Italian.

So I guess it just didn't make sense that these two women were Americans instead of Greek. They changed it didn't they? Its Ok Im not going to bite the messenger. I promise. I love this movie, I can take it. Honest.

Ok, well English to American is not that bad. I would have been really upset though if they were originally greek natives and they made them American.

I just get so tired of Hollywood making everything BLONDE. I mean good grief blondes get every part imaginable, even when it calls for specifically a dark haired race female, THEY get the part.

And Hollywood wonders why they have such outrageouslly spoiled blonde brats running around. DUH... becuase you give them ALL the BEST parts and they don't have to do anything thing but be BLONDE.

I was speaking metephorically, what I meant is Hollywood seems to have a HO for natural blondes.

For example. 6 of top ten highest paid actresses are NATURAL BLONDES:

Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman, Carmen Diaz, Renea Zelwig, Jodie Foster, and Drew Barrymore. ALL NATURAL BLONDES

AND...Reese Witherspoon, Nicole Kidman and Renea Zelwig are at the VERY top. And Im pretty sure Kate Hudson, Cate Blanchett, Katherine Heigl, Gwenth Paltrow, Charlize Theron and Helen Hunt are very very close to them. MORE NATURAL BLONDES.

So, what is it? Are they better looking. I think maybe thats what HOLLYWOOD HEADS think but come on. None of them have topped Mens Magazines list like Angaline Jolie, Julie Roberts, Halle Berry, Megan Fox, Eva Langoria, Penelope Cruz, Demi Moore, Courtney Cox and Jennifer Connelly has.

So ok some of them are kids of stars but most of them arn't. So, what? Are they better actress'S? Well as many MORE opportunities as the get for roles and especially BIG roleS, they sure in the heck should be. But I personally don't think they are.

And what also doesnt make sense is that being blonde isn't even RARE any more. Any body and everybody is blonde these days so what in the heck is this fixtation about NATURAL BLONDES?

And what is really upsetting is when the Natural blondes get roles that are SPECIFICALLY FOR NATURAL BRUNETTES OR EVEN A DIFFERENT RACE. For example.

Reese Witherspoon played June Cash Jessica Lange played Patsy Kline Sissy Spacek played Loretta Lynn-indian

Like I said, no wonder the natural blondes in Hollywood are such spoiled brats. They've got it made.

Anyway, guys yes, I would also like to make a push for brunettes and other race women. I mean come on blondes don't need your help in Hollywood. So if you decide to write a MUSICAL please.....don't make the leading lady blonde. I would even go for a redhead over a blonde. Thank you. Im done now.

Thomas,

OK, so you're telling me that when DREW was What? 9 years old they bleached her hair blonde for ET and FIRESTARTER. I highly doubt that.

And for Nicole Kidman you could be right but she is so fair skinned I just assummed she was naturally blonde or a very light red head. She is so pale, Im sure she was a blonde baby.

OMG....a very old one, but too true. Although, maybe more like SHEEP than chickhen.

Orlanda,

OK, YOU get a pass. 39 blondes in your family? Good grief you wouldn't know how to write about any one else. Don't get upset, but I can't help visualizing a "Children of the Corn" musical.

Thomas,

It is very common for the people who were born blonde to be a light brunette by the time they are an adult. Their hair turns dark. Not super dark mind you ,but they're not the " pardon the old term" toe heads they started out to be.

But, please if I'm still wrong about Drew don't get any more graphic about it. Thank you.

I think Joseph meant the Horse. I hope he meant the horse. He MEANT THE BIG WOODEN HORSE! DAGGUMIT.

This is a DISNEY thread for goodness sakes!

By the way, this is the one contest I do definitely want to enter with my family dance musicals. I think I might have a chance with this one.

But I guess I don't understand the contract you're talking about. Please explain this a little better, I'm a beginner at this contest stuff. Thank you.

What? Are you kidding me? No musicals for Disney. Well that just doesn't make any sense at all. I'll be back.

Terry,

Im sorry I can't find it. Can you tell me exactly where it says THAT I really wanted to enter this one and that just never occurred to me, not with Disney.

Also, I think maybe you're going a little over board on the application language thing. I mean of course I don't know about these screen writing contest agreements.

But... I've been an insurance casualty claims adjuster for over 20 years and we have people sign hold harmless agreements and releases all the time and they truly mean nothing except to make the person thats signing it believe they have no recourse. We basically can't use them in a court of law. We are basically just trying to protect ourselves and I really think that's all Disney is trying to do. Although they do seem to be going a little over board with it.

I mean think about it. Whats Disney going to do if you don't give up all of your scripts. Sue on the basis of a hold harmless agreement? I don't think so. No ones paying any one in this contract so there is no "bind". I don't care if they say it or not. When there is an exchange of money then theres a contract and a bind (possibly). But not before.

Anyway, you may want to ask an attorney if something like that holds up in court before you keep yourself from entering contests that might be an ideal opportunity for you.

Im sorry, possibly you've already done that.Then just disregard every thing I said. Insurance is a little different than the movie buisness. Anyway, please tell me where that part about the NO MUSICALS IS. Im really bummed right now.

Well this is just not bleeping fair at all. How in the world is a musical writer suppose to get any where if they don't even have any contests for us.

I mean musicals are not as much about the stories as other genres are. They are about the music and the choreography and most non musical readers don't even know what musical writers are talking about, so how can we be judged on the same level.

Oh never mind, this just makes me really mad. Now I even have Disney against me.

Jean,

Thank you, Ill definitely try it. Its just so hard to know which comps offer a musical category without going through all of them, because MOST dont.

But, please let me know when ever you see or hear of one. But not on this DISNEY thread.

NO MUSICAL SUBMISSIONS for a Disney contest IN DEED! That is just SO...not right!

Is this " the swimmer" anything like the one with Burt Lancaster back in the 50's or 60's. Sorry, I can't remeber which. I believe I only saw it one time.

If I remember correctly it was about this guy that went from swimming pool to swimming pool, somewhere in the burbs of course. He would swim the length of the pool then visit with or whatever with the owner.

It was very strange but thats all I remember about it, I havent seen it since I was a kid (in the mid 60's by the way). But hey Burt Lancaster looked really good in it. For those days I mean. No one was built like they are now.

I don't know about anyone else, but 480 viewings in the first month sounds awfully good to me. Thats double what my country ballroom and Neon moon did and triple what (pony girl) did and PG even placed in a couple of contests.

And not only that but I have received hardly any synopsis or script excerpt readings so It sounds to me like yours is doing awfully well. Of course Im just a new writer with "little dance musicals" and with no where near the credentials you have.

But again it sounds like you're doing pretty well to me.Congratulations.

Frank,

Thank you, thats exactly the story I was talking about. I think if any of you really mystery/drama/psycho type screenwriters want to see how THAT genre got started you aught to try and find that movie. I remember it even better now that I went into IMBD and the Wikipedia on it. The short story was published in 1964 and the movie (with Burt Lancaster) came out in 1968.

Anyway, I remember it now. This guy is just out to fullfill this challenge of swimming from pool to pool through the entire county (in a week) but about halfway through we start to realize something is wrong.

This character is aging and people that he runs into that he knows act like they havent seen him in years etc. Basically this little one week trip turned into something much longer and he obviously has developed alzheimers while he's swimming.

Its not clear exactly whats going on at all but by the end of it he finally makes it back to his home and his house is empty and his family is gone. The end. Good stuff huh?

I think 60's and 70's did allot of this earthy/quirky type dramas, you know Virginia Wolfe, Marty, Oh what was the one with Cliff Robertson? Of course all of the Tennessee Williams things, but also some of the Hitchcock stuff was more this style than it was scary-thriller.

Anyway, you don't really see this style much anymore. I guess because we've went SO far in to Action/thriller vs Horror vs. Sci-Fi. I don't know I write dance musicals but I know THOSE were really good ones. Other than any and all dance musicals thats the only other thing I watch is those Old strange movies.

OH, OH, OH ....while we're on the subject. There is a Hitchcock movie that I can never remember the name of. It's so strange. I believe Gregory Peck was in it and hes lost in some stairway. I mean the movie starts with him in a stairwell and he doesnt know how it got there or basically who he is.

I think basically the whole movie is about he lost the last 5 or so years. I cant remember. I know , I know people write these kind of amnesia , alzheimers movies all the time any more but it was kind of along the style of you know 6th Sense and it was the first time we saw any thing like THAT. I think. Well it was the first I ever saw like that, they would you know draw you in to something and it turns out to be he just has amnesia.

Anyway, does anyone remember what that Hitchcock movie was, I loved it.

Congratulations Jean, for Lady Jazz? WONDERFUL. Isn't this the one you said was your first so you didn't really expect it to go any where? Well, it doesn't look like it to me. Congratulations again.

Mary,

Sorry, it wasn't Hitchcock at all, I just always thought it was which is probably why I never could find it before. But I was positive it was Gregory Peck so I tried that way and it was MIRAGE with Diane Baker in 1965.

They say right on there that it was like Hitchcock so that must have been why I always thought it was him. Anyway, sorry again.

OK,OK, just one more. What was the Twilight Zone made for TV movie I believe that was remade in the 80's or 90's but it wasnt anywhere near as good as the original that was about ghost on a plane and they couldnt leave the plane.

I mean they didnt know they were dead but they were and the couldnt leave the plane. It was such a good movie but its really old and Im pretty sure it was just a Twilight zone one. Does anyone remember or know?

Frank, Thats probably true. But thats not much fun is it? I mean this is a movie board, I thought and I was asking movie trivia questions (about thriller movies by the way on a THE TERROR, THE TERROR thread.

I think its kind of good to discuss these old movies because they had allot of influence on writing and movies now. And... it could stimulate thinking for thriller writers. But Hey Im just a new writer I guess I don't know anything.

Lou,

What are they? I mean the only movies I see at the theatres now are BIG ACTION and of course my personal favorite MAMMA MIA (a musical) so I guess Im not sure what 3 r-rated comedys you're talking about.

Geoffrey,

I am listed on Inktip and I have been for almost a year now. I did see and apply to this listing. I THOUGHT we were a perfect fit.

I mean all 3 of my scripts "Country Ballroom", "Pony Girl" and "Looking for a Man with a Corvette"are teen, family musicals with 2-3 locations and low budget.

I submitted all three loglines and synopsis to them but they didnt want to read any of them. So I don't know whats wrong. I mean my stories arnt really centered around singers, although there is singing in all three (country singing that is) but mostly my scripts center around country ballroom dancing. So maybe thats the problem or maybe its just that Im new and unknown, I get that allot. I dont know.

But yeah I thought it was perfect for me too.

My dance musicals are a little different too. I mean they sound like old fashioned country western dancing musicals etc etc. But they're not.

My romantic leading ladies are all partially black city girls. So that may have something to do with it too. I dont know. All I can do is make them as good as possible.

But thank you so much for helping. I actually need all I can get, I think. Thank you Geoff.

Also, Ive had allot of coverage done on them lately and put allot of work into them. And.... I found a couple of contest that have musical categories in them, that I entered. So maybe Ill have a chance.

I just don't want to enter ones with out a music category because I dont think I stand a chance against other genres.

I mean they're just mild romantic comedys but I think I could compete against other dance musicals because they're different than most these days. But I dont think I stand a chance against skilled writers.

Anyway, thank you again.

Oh, well I dont guess I understand where you thought adult comedies like those were ever out of favor.

I personally don't like those kind of comedies expecially when they are more slap stick, sex slap stick , racial slap stick etc etc than funny.

You know like Austin Powers, Good luck Chuck, The love geru. I guess Im glad The love guru didnt do that well because I really dont like THAT style,

I just dont think its that funny. Anyway it probably didnt do that well because it was so much like Zohan and Zohan released first.

But the three you mentioned should probably do OK because they seem fairly unique. Unless of course they had a tremendous budget. Which I dont understand. Since when are comedies such high budget films?

Jean, At the risk of having everyone on this board scream at me, I just have one question I just have to ask about your logline. I mean I don't know anything else about your script so this question is strictly based on the logline. OK?

If this woman is white (which I assume she is) and the #1 suspect in a black man's murder in LA in the 1940's, then why in the world does she have to run from the law?

I understand that the murder victims twin brother is a cop but come on , 1940's anywhere in the US did not care about blacks killing blacks let alone if a white woman did it.

That may sound very negative and exagerated but its pretty much the truth. I dont think she was running from the law. She may be running from this other crazy huge black man but not the whole LA PD.

Also, I dont know too many black men in the 1940's that would openly chase a white woman. I mean it just was not done. Even as a police officer.

OK, relax, Im just asking these questions because I can garantee Spike Lee or any other black man you want for your leading man in this will ask you.

Im in the same boat as you with a white and black romance in the US. so Im asking you these questions because I want you to ask me the same KIND about mine.

Im pretty sure most white people are not going to ask (US) questions like this because its not "politically correct".

But blacks will ask you and if you dont have a good answer they wont like it and THEY are part of your target audience. So again, why is she running?

OK, thats a good reason. I mean I agree the music/jazz scene all along has been less tolerant of racism and of course the sports arena has too. But of course they had to be, didn't they?

But...the CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM has probably been the ABSOLUTE LAST to catch up and I believe thats true in all 50 states. Do you have any idea what the ratio of blacks to white in prison is and the US is only 20% black? Well, I can tell you its over 50% in EVERY state and its not because blacks commit more crimes.

Anyway, my only point was, you might want to do a little extra research on weather or not the police would react the way you say (in 1940's L.A.) and actually pursue a white suspect that has killed a black man.

I live in Iowa and it is very white here and (its not deep south, its midwest).But I can tell you about a couple of incidents in just the early 70's where 2 young black women were killed by their white boyfriends and absolutely nothing was done about it. No investigation, Nothing.

Even more recently, 2000 where 2 bouncers at a night club killed a young black man for dressing wrong and the 2 bouncers received no punishment at all.

So....Im just saying. When you're talking about blacks and the criminal justice system and being treated equally, its not quite there yet. Even in California. OK?

I understand being the suspect was not the only reason. Im just saying I wonder if it would have been a reason at all.

Joseph,

I understand that, but Im just telling you how blacks in the United States would react to this and since her leading man is black Im assuming they are part of her target audience. That SMALL part of it, is somewhat not believable. OK?

Geoffrey,

THAT is NOT inconcievable. That's not what I said. Of course his brother would be a part of the investigation.

That the LA Police department conducts such an investigation in the (1940's)is POSSIBLY incorrect, is all I said.

Racism in the 1940's in the United States and especially in the Criminal Justice System was extremely blatant and harsh. And NOT just in the Deep south.

In the 1940s I believe (in CALIFORNIA) they were locking American orientals up and putting them in camps simply because of their heritage. The US didn't even let black service men fight in WWII in the 40's by the way.

So Im simply suggesting that there would not be a full fledged murder investigation (by the LA Police department)if a white woman in the 1940's was suspected of killing a black man. Thats all I said.

Also, Im sure Jean deals with all these racial issues in her script. According to the first entry on this thread her script is extremely believable and good. So I know she has covered all this.

Im just saying that this area in her logline is something she may want to look at, because the logline is the FIRST impression. And I know several blacks that would look at that and misunderstand it just like I did, OK?

Ok, now Im getting angry. I was NOT questioning your script. I was questioning your logline. And I have been answering other bloggers that seem to want to twist around what I said in the first place.

Ok, I made a sweeping statement about blacks not being allowed to fight in WWII. And by the way, my father, 4 uncles all served in WWII and my 2 brothers in VIET NAM and an ex husband so to suggest that I would belittle their service in someway is really insulting.

And also I am multi racial including white, black and indian so Im somewhat coming from a place that I know what Im talking about. But if you don't want the input fine , I wont give it. GOOD GRIEF.

Poetist and Elaine,

I knew that Lady Jazz was white because Jean had said it on another thread. But see thats kind of the point. Ok it would be wonderful if we dont see things or people in color and I think these days we all try not to.

But....this country has A HISTORY of racism and in 1940s it was very prevelant and thats all I was trying to say and it got blown out of proportion and twisted around because everybody thought I was critisizing Jeans script and I wasn't.

I havent read it, I just read the logline and I was simply commenting on that and saying that I don't think you can ignore our history in a situation like shes writing about. Wether she does or not in here script I dont know. It just looked to me like she was in her logline. Period.

Orlanda,

The only problem with that is if you don't specify a race then Hollywood will automatically make your characters white.

I read somewhere that something like 70% of the scripts submitted to Hollywood didn't specify a race in any way shape or form and could have easily been black. But of that 70% something like 99% goes to white actors.

Where do black actors and actresses get a break in casting if not in the script where we can specify a race? And if we specified in the script then you might as well do it in the logline too.

Orlanda,

I agree, except in my script if I didn't state that my leading lady is partially black then one would assume that she is white because Im talking about country western, singing, dancing, out on the farm, etc .

And...the fact that she is not white is A BIG PART OF THE MAIN CONCEPT in my script because DUH, thats why I wrote about it. Its different and doesn't happen very often.

Anyway, again IT belongs in the logline just like Jean did, by the way.

And she is not doing great, she is doing INCREDIBLE. It looks to me like she has MORE WINS for both of her scripts than anyone else on the board. I guess it just scares me how someone can do SO WELL and not get sold.

Im a new writer and my scripts have racially mixed leads, like hers does. So of course Im concerned that THAT may have something to do with it.

But in her case, like Dorthy said Any of the affluent black producers or actors should pick this up. Spike Lee, Danzel Washington, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, the Rock, Terrance Howard etc. All of them have the money and the power to DO IT.

Where in my case, the male lead is white so its not as easy because my female lead is very young so naturally I don't have the choices that Jean does.

So I guess I simply started this whole thing to give possible reasons why THOSE black actors/producers were not picking it up. I mean good grief. How many contests does she have to win, GUYS?

As I understand High Concept its

1. Great title 2. very short logline 3. Uplifting 4. And...it appeals to a big audience.

So, to me the only movies that I can think of right of the top of my head are.

1. Gone with the Wind 2. Wizard of Oz 3. Dances with Wolves 4. From here to Eternity 5. In the Heat of the night 6. One flew over the Cuckoos nest 7. Whos afraid of Virginia Wolfe 8. They shoot horses don't they?

There are a few more I would call high concept but either they had pretty sad titles or the logline was not short. But all of these, I believe had mass appeal.

For example, Gone with the wind has always been concidered a chick flick but because it has so much of the civil war in it the appeals broadens. Same with "Dances with wolves" and "From here to eternity". They are both war and romance stories so they have a broader appeal.

But hey, arn't all of these titles great?

Anyway, I think if you want to write high concept you have to combine genres. You know, write Action, romance and thriller. Or Action, drama and thriller.

Basically you have to write a guy movie along with a girl movie. Good luck. By the way, my favorite movie of all time is "Hunt for Red October".

Actually, I almost said Star Wars. Its just that the title is pretty weak. A good space movie with a great title was " Silent Running" with Bruce Dern back in the early 70's. Too bad it had kind of a long logline and not really mass appeal. Not violent enough I think.

Actually, doesn't everyone TRY to write high concept? I mean when they start out that is. I mean, the only reason I even started writing , at my age that is, was because I thought I had something that ALLOT of people would like or at least be interested in checking out.

I know, thats not ALL that high concept is. But its a big part of it. I think everytime you write you should be aiming for THAT, shouldn't you?

Lisa,Thomas

I checked out the whole first season from the video store last week. I have seen many, many versions of the exact same story (Mater piece theatre, Anne of Thousand days with Richard Burton etc etc.) So I don't think its the writing or dialogue that is so exeptional about this series. Unless of course you've never seen any of the previous versions.

To me what made this version very, very good was the costumes, scenery, cast, acting, music and the tempo. Most previous ones drug by in many spots. This one moves really well.

I didnt care for the fairly explicit sex scenes but Im sure thats what drew the younger crowd. THAT, I think and THAT Henry. Of course Suffix wasn't bad either . But my goodness I have never, ever seen Henry the 8th with out red hair, a huge gut and such great eyes.

Who ever he is, he certainly gives us a totally NEW look at Henry VIII and its ...oh my.

I forgot the BEARD. Always, always, always previous Henry VIII had a beard. Its really nice to see him without one. I dont like beards much.

I entered this contest, just for fun, because I knew I didn't have a chance. (Mine's a dance musical).

Anyway, I got my notice of semi finals list today and they said in their letter that the judges found allot of scripts that (even though they couldn't forward them to the final rounds they did think they filled different producers needs etc so they are sending them out to them).

I thought this was a really great thing for a contest to do and I will definitely try this one again next year.

Some of us just don't stand a chance in these contests but that doesn't mean producers and agents arn't looking for our type of scripts.

So again I thought this was just wonderful of them.

Wonderfully put Ben.

We usually don't agree but strangely enough on this, we do, sort of. I watched a special the other day " movies that Rock the world". I believe it was called and this episode was on John Waters, you know the Pink Flamingo and Hair spray guy.

I remember when Pink Flamingo came out and how much bad press and bad everything it received but it was an absolute hit at that box office and truely changed movies for ever.

I think what happened though was that we drifted again and got too comfortable with " formula writing and making safe money". No one seems to want to take any chances any more and that is SO WRONG.

I haven't seen Thunder and don't intend to because the humor is to out there for me, kind of like Austin Powers and Hair Spray. But in a way its just like my scripts are, not formula so I support it.

I've never heard of formula movies winning academy awards or hitting really big at the box office. I mean OK Dark Knight, Hancock, Titanic and Mama Mia did. But first of all the Dark Knight, Hancock and Titanic put a WHOLE BUNCH of money into them and I really hate to say this but I really think Heath Ledgers death had something to do with Dark Knights popularity.

Also, I dont really see Hancock, Titanic and Mamma Mia as formula. Actually I thing MAMMA MIA was old formula mixed with new things, like A woman not knowing who her daughters father was. Kind of like my musicals are.

Anyway, thank you for promoting taking chances and risks. You are back at the top of my list again.

Why is it that incredible singing or dancing is no longer the focus in musicals?

I mean I think that's part of the problem now a days too. Of course the talent is getting better in the the reality shows but not in actual musicals. Not like they use to. It use to be the most talented singers and dancers were in the musicals. But not now.

I just read on a script detail about a mezzo soprano that can sing in 3 octaves. I bet that 95% of this board doesn't even know what that means let alone how incredible that is.

I adore good singing. My mother and I joke about the kids we see on American Idol and how most of them seem to have learned the yelling and vibrato first THEN wether or not they sing in key. IE they learn from the radio. I closed my eyes and listen to them and I cringe.

Please,please please bring good singing and dancing back to the musicals. By the way, two octaves is exceptional, three is incredible. That is amazing. Please put someone like that in musicals.

Ben,

No, but I will, thank you.

Although, Chicago is a perfect example of non singers and dancers in Musicals. Wasn't that Richard Gere and Nicole Kidman? I mean good grief how far from the best singing and dancing talents can you get? Like I said before:

A mezzo saprono that can sing 3 octaves, that is absolutely incredible. We need people like THAT in musicals not Nicole Kidman, Meryl Streep or Amanda Seyfried.(spelling, sorry). Good grief.

They let you rewrite your script for the final rounds too? How wonderful is that?

For a contest to send out some non- winners scripts and let finalists rewrite their scripts, I think that is just incredible.

I have been looking, since January of this year, for good contests. So far, THIS ONE is the THE BEST. I will definitely try it again next year.

Lisa,

Over looked by the Emmys? really? Well thats probably because allot of young people look at the costumes on the previews and simply assume that its an "old thing". Maybe Showtime needs to put one of their nude scenes on to advertize then maybe they will watch it.

Because Im with you, I was REALLY impressed with this Henry VIII version. Its old but it new. You know what I mean. I really think it can appeal to the historian intellectuals and the "others". Kind of like movies like Braveheart and oh what was that one with Liam Nieson and Jessica Lang (Scottish) did. I got it. Robroy, wasn't it?

Anyway, I think if you saw an older Henry VIII movie I think you would see the dialouge is pretty similar. Its just that EVERYTHING else isn't. Including that wonderful Henry. Im telling you he totally changes that tired old story. Yes and Anne too. Shes gorgeous and really good in this part.

Hey, do they do the other wives too I wonder? I guess that will probably depend on how long the series can run. We were trying to remember all of the names. There were 3 Catherines wasn't there? And another Anne? Well, I think it could possibly run into the kids (Mary and Elizabeths stories) as far as Im concerned.

Someone needs to advertize this better. It is marvelous. I will try some other video stores to see if I can't find season 2. The first one I went to didnt have it. I don't get Showtime. But I might add it just for this show.

Thank you, so much for talking about it on here. I only heard one mention of it last year at work and I was curious but not enough to check it out until you talked about it on here. Thank you again.

Im with everyone else, present it as you would any thing else. I would just like to say that showing at the end that the person was dreaming or " the sixth sense thing" actually dead and a ghost has been done, done, and so done.

And actually there are allot of reasons for someone "having an out of body experience" besides dreaming or being a ghost. Just suggestions:

1. Post partum depression

2. Terrible grief ( the death or torture of a loved one) definitely puts you in a dream like state.

3. Drugs of course

4. Extreme exhaustion (spelling , sorry)

5. extreme illness

Again, just suggestions on WHY the person is in a dream like state. I guess Im just tired of regular dreams and ghost. Sorry.

Lisa,

To me the lesson that this series mostly shows is that if you CAN take something old AND make it new and different if of course you do it right. And I most definitely think who ever did this is doing it right. I JUST HAVE TO GET SHOWTIME DONT I?

Im with you there is just really nothing else on TV. The only thing I really watch is Law and order reruns and the musical reality shows. But I was definitely engrossed in THE TUDORS. AGAIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SHARING.

Robert,

Good for you. I love your script already. Ok Ok but how about male menapauase? Just kidding. It sounds great. Good luck.

Personally I for one am very tired of all of these internal/external experiences that really arn't very common but Hollywood makes them seem like they happen all the time. I mean

1. It is a terrible experience if a young woman who happens to still be a virgin is raped but, speaking from experience, developing a split personality from it (even if she was pre disposed to it) is not likely.

More likely is simply that she is very afraid for a long time. Being raped simply shows you how really vunerable you are. It doesn't throw you into psycotic agressive behavior. I took allot of self defense classes myself and found a very strong and protective boyfriend.

2. Ok maybe Im wrong, maybe that is psychotic behavior.

3. Anyway, Im sorry it just seems to me that that has been done enough and there are other ways to go. How bout a young boy that was raped and developes split personality etc etc.

4. I guess Im just kind of tired of you guys writing about something you don't know that much about. I mean its bad enough so many of you are Romance writers , which I know very few men (as compared to women) that are very romantic at all. But now writing about women getting raped and how they react to it? You're bugging me, OK?

I so love it when something comes out that doesn't abhere to the rules and does really well (per their 500k budget that is). What do the rest of you think? Have you seen it? Can you explain it?

It definitely is not following Hollywood standards. I read some where where the ministry offered babysitting for those who wanted to see the movie but couldn't. I love it!

Ron, ok, ok, so are you saying my little no violence/no sex and lots of singing and dancing DANCE musical should eventually have a chance right now?

Just kidding. I think you're right about most everything you said. I remember the early 70's, I graduated from highschool then. Right now, does remind me allot of how it was then. People were in a panic somewhat like they are now.

I don't remember allot of inspirational feel good movies coming out then but I do recall that allot of musicals did very well right before and during that time and even received several awards

1960-1975(Funny girl, Mary Poppins, Sound of Music, Oliver, Hello Dolly, Cabaret, Chorus Line, All that Jazz, Saturday night fever, West Side Story, Coal Miners Daughter, Jesus Christ Superstar, Music Man, Hair, The Wiz, My Fair Lady).

So maybe there is hope for me.

Ron and Paula,

Actually, I have re written my script for the stage. I wouldn't do it for a long time because I didn't think I could (there is allot of scenery and animals in my script) but I finally figured it out.

But now, I have no idea how to market it.I mean The city I live is not New York. I mean the dancing I describe in my script is much better than any local dancers I know. I'm pretty sure I could interest local highschools, I was in several highschool musicals around here (30 some years ago) But..Highschoolers arent usually or necessarily incredible ballroom dancers so thats the hitch. I mean the big cities, Chicago , NewYork, Kansas city etc would be better but I just really don't know where or how to start. Do You?

Anyway, how do you market a stage play? I don't see any places specifically on the net and I havent found any contests that accept stage plays. I guess I would have to query Theatre heads but I don't even know how to get a list of them. It's just that theatre is so different ....Any suggestions.

Paula and Karen,

Thank you so much I will check into them. Thank you.

COUNTRY BALLROOM

FADE IN:

EXT. BELL FOUNTAIN HILLS (1995)- DAY

LENT HAYES JR., a strapping 21 year old cowboy on a tractor plows a tiny field nestled in plush green hills.

EXT. TRACY, IOWA.- PARSONAGE

On a hill top nearby in the wee farm-town sits a country blue Dutch style parsonage with a veranda.

INT. PARSONAGE- DRESSING ROOM

In their reflection from a row of mirrors on wheels, the BRIDAL PARTY imitates exotic dancers. They need help.

JESSE, THE BRIDE silently pleads with her incredibly gorgeous MAID OF HONOR, to join them. DANLEY surrenders.

1ST DANCE ROUTINE ''Mustang Sally''(by Mack Rice) sang by the girls, sort of.

This is a getting ready for the wedding dance. In strictly under garments, heels and Stetsons they rotate, ripple and wave. They even use the mirrors for dance partners as they do a cross between an exotic dance and THE RUMBA.

EXT. VERANDA

From outside, two pint-size Stetson wearing USHERS (TRAVIS and BLAKE) leer through the dressing room window.

Two different colored cards in hand, a precocious FLOWER GIRL shoves them.

FLOWER GIRL

Here! (releases cards) Jesse needs money. So, anybody wants ta dance with any a them... (nods to bridesmaids) Has ta pay you guys. Got it?

Oh too funny. How does it go? If you wanna help don't help. We love you Ron and you have DEFINITELY livened up the board. Thank you.

"Writing only what you know is pure bullshit" --------------------------------------- Thomas, I agree to a point. Because if you dont write about things you know then I think you run the risk of someone telling you you dont know what you are talking about.

I understand, so movies are supernatural and fictional but I think part of the draw... for certain genres is their authenticity. Don't you think?

I mean for example I could right a script about football (which I have very little knowledge of, basketballs another story) anyway, how many young guys (my target audience) would like it if I didnt have some knowledge of what I was writing about? Trust me, people that have experience or extreme knowledge of something can pick out a fake in a minute.

Ron,

Oh, is that what we were doing? I thought you were trying to get as many 1st pages on here as possible then we all vote on who's 2nd page we would ALL, MOST like to read and WHY.

I thought you were making the point that our first page/hook is really important. I didn't think we were going to actually critic all of them. If we are then Im taking mine off somehow. Im a new writer so I already know that writing style wise etc I need work. But I think (maybe) I can compete on FIRST PAGE-HOOKS.

So I say lets let it ride and see how many contenders we get .Then when YOU (since you started this) feel we have enough we can all say whos 1st page we like the best and why . We can maybe (even do 2nd place 3rd ,4th and 5th). And critic just those 5 and why we all think those are the ones we ALL want to read further. And why we do. Just a suggestion.

Oh, one more thing. If you do it that way, I think when the voting time comes we have to have the rule that no one can vote for their own first page. Don't you think? I think we're more apt to get honest opponions that way instead of egos.

OK, Thomas you are right. I don't know what jage's experiences he or she could in fact have. Possibly he does have something akin to it.

My thought when you mentioned the singer and never being in a whore house before I was thinking yeah but I imagine allot of crack houses or boot legging joints are somewhat akin to whore houses don't you think?

I mean everyone does that in a way. Twist around their own experiences to create a new story. Its called imagination.

HOWEVER, lets say your own relm then. I still maintain that I would not have any desire to write about something so foriegn to me. And it just seems to me that a guy writing about a woman who was a virgin being raped and becoming a split personality killer is way too different from (his relm). But of course I don't know Jage or his or her relm.

But I just think producers and contest readers think the same way I do in this area. They want some kind of expertise behind the main subject. I would think they would anyway.

Jage,

Please don't get me wrong, please dont drop it because of things I said. Im sure there are plenty of producers and contest heads that have no expertise what so ever in this area also so like above states, if its written and researched really well , they will LOVE it.

Of course thats part of my gripe about movies being made these days they have no REAL basis and if the viewer DOES, they dont like it. But hey , Im just a viewer, please dont listen to me.

OK,OK

I will help you. Here are 3 pretty Universal tips about a VIRGIN RAPE.

1. She has NEVER had sex before. SHE IS GOING TO FIGHT YOU. I don't care if there are 20 of you. I don't care if she hasn't any clue how to fight . I don't care if you are twice as big as her. SHE IS GOING TO FIGHT AND NEOGTIATE AND FIGHT AND NEGOTIATE. SHE WILL DO ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING NOT TO BE RAPED, BUT MOSTLY SHE WIL FIGHT.

2. SO....If you are determined to rape her both of you will end up with allot of scratches , bruises, black eyes etc. In my case there were BURNS.

3. NOISE. A virgin rape has to be the noisiest RAPE THERE IS. She will scream , bite kick, yell and throw any thing and everything she can get her hands on at you. Youve heard of mothers having miracaulous strength to save their babies well...so do virgins being raped.

Also, this is probably why it really isnt THAT common.

Guys give up because its just not worth ALL the trouble..

Oh...one more thing. What in the he....k is a a punt return?

I got it , I got it.

During this VIRGIN RAPE, which like I said before will definitely be an out right brawl, the guy tries to stuff his***** in her mouth. Naturally, she bites it off and for some reason the doctors can't re attach it.

This throws HIM into a scitzo which he becomes a mass killer of virgins (which his agressive behavior he was obviously already predisposed to because he tried to RAPE A VIRGIN).

Now, that story I wouldn't have a problem with a guy writing because that one focus's more on a guys indignations and psychotic behavior instead and POOR VIRGIN"S. Quit picking on virgins OK?

Besides its something I think a guy could really sink his teeth into. HA HA

Come to think of it , I think the biting has been done before. As has the cut off with a knife.

SUPER-GLUE to the stomach though I dont think has been done in the movie. I heard of someone whos husband cheated on her regularly so she superglued it to his stomach while he was a sleep.

Naturally, he had to go to the hospital and they had to cut it and stich it etc etc. So in this case it could be a real botched up sutcher job.

Or was that in a movie? Sorry, I cant remember. But Im pretty sure the teeth have. Ill give it some more thought. Im sure I can come up with something that has not been done yet.

I know. I know.

During the VIRGIN RAPE-BRAWL, Mary sees a pair of vice-grips setting on the table.

Better yet......wire cutters!

How about vice-grips then a HAMMER? A BIG HAMMER!

Hey Jage,

By the way. Where does this virgin rape take place? I mean , what weapon my pysco Mary uses depends on where they are.(He's raping a virgin but you want HER to end up the pysco? whatever!).

Anyway, you said god-father type , does that mean an office? Or a houes .....with a KITCHEN. A KITCHEN WOULD BE LOVELY.

But so would a work shop.....two words. STAPLE GUN.

Martin,

I don't know what you mean, I was just trying to help Jage write a more realistic thriller about "RAPING A VIRGIN".

Jage, Yes you did drop it, thank you. But your idea has supporters that Im fun with now. Sorry.

I see...its ok to talk about "RAPING A VIRGIN" (on this board) but not the possibility of (Mutilating her assailant). Real honest and fair there Martin.

Just one more thing then I will shut up and go away.

Martin,

If you truly are the father of a victim then I dont have a problem with someone like YOU writing a story like THAT. But not someone that has either never been raped or never associated with a victim. Im sorry but you cant honestly believe that your own experience is the same as research.

Martin, I dont understand , why didnt you just say that it was your idea in the first place? Yes I was a victim but it was 35 years ago. So, I am able to talk about it pretty freely.

But, the way the first post was written it sounded callous to me. I know now you didnt mean it to sound that way, but to me it did. It sounded strictly like someone who didnt have a clue and was just having fun talking about raping virgins. Im sorry but it just sounded that way to me.

Maybe Im just super sensitive about it, but of course, I would be.

Now, is this a good idea? Like I said in my last post, of course it is if YOU do it. However, again I dont think the split personality for a young adult woman is correct. I mean, a split personality comes from an extremeely terrifing experience that usually occurs in childhood not adult (Sybil and All about Eve happened in their youth, not young adult hood).

Now, thats not to say it couldnt happen as a result of a rape (in her young adult hood) but I think the rape would have to be pretty gruesome, possibly involving several guys and happening over long period of time (like hours). It you are a victims father Im not sure you could write something like that. I know I couldnt, it would be extremely hard.

But, I do think, to convince your audience that this young adult was thrown into a pyschotic split like that it would have to be pretty gruesome. Sorry.

"The General's Daughter" with John Travolta and Sharon Stone had the type of brutal rape of a young adult woman in it that seems to me, could throw an adult virgin into a pyscotic split and rage.

However, everything else about THAT movie (as far as Im concerned) was ALL wrong.

#1. The victim became a "pysco slut".

Now, I guess its possible but actually, I personally did not want sex after THAT for a very very long time and when I finally did I sure in the heck was not comfortable enough to be a slut about it.

Any other victims I know, which I know several say the same thing. They did not want to have sex or be touched for a long time. 2. Also, in THAT movie they made it sound like her pychotic behavior was more because she resented her father for not telling on the culprits or punishing them.

WHAT? The absolute last thing I WANTED after THAT was to tell anyone except my family. Granted my parents didnt want me to tell anyone either but.......

I REALLY didnt want to. I had to be coaxed into reporting it by my older sisters. Otherwise, I would have been perfectly happy not telling anyone. And from talking to other rape victims that is pretty common for rape victims. Not being mad at someone who didnt want us to tell. So that part bothered me too.

Its not people keeping you from reporting the rape that you are going to have hostility towards. Its the assailant (s) themselves. They are really the only ones you are going to hate. (dislike). I try not to hate. 3. The woman stayed on the BASE where the rape happened and her assailants still were still there. THAT to me, is impossible.

Unless of course one by one she mutilates all of her assailants(in their sleep) like I suggested in all of my previous posts. JUST KIDDING. You know I had to throw that in somewhere.

Anyway, my point is that I stayed 100's of miles away from my assailants and mine were even charged and convicted of assault and rape but I still didnt want to be any where around them. So her staying on the same BASE as them really made no sense to me either.

I looked up "The Generals Daughter" and it was written by a man. Now maybe he was basing this story on some rape story he was familiar with but I can garantee it wasnt one he was very close to. Like you and I are. And most rape victims I know, agree with me. A rape victim does not act the way Sharon Stones character did.

I mean ok it made a good story and made allot of money. But we're pretty sure it wasn't true. Or if it was they left out allot of things.

Thomas,

Sorry, was it "three faces of Eve" then? You know, with Joanne Woodward.

I was just using "the General's Daughter" as an example of misconceptions about rape and rape victims.

Basically, in order to proove my WHOLE point that they shouldn't be written by people not close to it.

But I was wrong to assume every man that wants to write about this is not close to it. That was really thoughtless of me and I truely apologize.

By the way, the absolute worst thing that ever happened to me was not my own rape or anything to me.

It was when my son (who had never ever been in any kind of trouble and wouldn't harm a fly) went to trial, then prison for 4 years (maximum security by the way) for something he didn't do. It was easily the worst 4 years of my life. I felt totally helpless.

I think it is far worst when a terrible thing happens to your child than to your self. Again, Im sorry.

Da....gumit Thomas, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking to..,,,, Oh! nevermind!

I live in the Midwest but I try to enter contesta that have a music or family genre category. Do you have that?

GREAT FIRST PAGE Mark. I figured since no one else seem to be too interested in this we were going to have to just give it up, but maybe not.

Hey, Ron, how about extending the dead line for some possible stragglers that are just now finding your post?

Oh, by the way, I have a new first page. Thats not cheating is it. Well, if it is too bad, Ron's not telling us and since we thought this was done, it can't be cheating , right? Anyway, here it is. FADE IN:

EXT. BELL FOUNTAIN HILL (1989)- DAY

LENT HAYES JR. a modern day in his youth John Wayne rides a tractor. Plush green hills, a partially burnt down red barn and a old bubble shaped trailer embroiders his squalid field.

EXT. TRACY, IOWA.-PARSONAGE The remains of a two story brick school house tops the hill of this stranded little farm-town. Across the road leans a country blue Dutch style parsonage.

EXT. PARSONAGE- VERANDA Two pint-size Stetson wearing USHERS (TRAVIS and BLAKE) leer through a window.

INT. PARSONAGE- DRESSING ROOM The BRIDAL PARTY, in their reflection from a row of mirrors on wheels, imitate exotic dancers. They need help.

JESSE, THE BRIDE silently pleads with her Caribbean-looking incredibly gorgeous MAID OF HONOR. Danley surrenders.

1ST SONG- DANCE ROUTINE ''Mustang Sally''(by Mack Rice)(Danley sings). This is a getting ready for the wedding dance. In strictly under garments, heels and Stetsons and using the mirrors as partners, they ALL rotate, ripple and wave.

EXT. VERANDA Suddenly a precocious FLOWER GIRL shoves and hands the ushers two different colored cards.

FLOWER GIRL Here! Jesse needs money. So, anybody that wants ta dance with any a them...Has ta pay you guys. Got it?

TRAVIS So, who's g-g-got her's?

Sorry, I left out some breaks, here it is again.

FADE IN:

EXT. BELL FOUNTAIN HILL (1989)- DAY

LENT HAYES JR., a modern day in his youth, John Wayne rides a tractor. Plush green hills, a partially burnt down red barn and a old bubble shaped trailer embroiders his squalid field.

EXT. TRACY, IOWA.-PARSONAGE

The remains of a two story brick school house tops the hill of this stranded little farm-town. Across the road leans a country blue Dutch style parsonage.

EXT. PARSONAGE- VERANDA

Two pint-size Stetson wearing USHERS (TRAVIS and BLAKE) leer through a window.

INT. PARSONAGE- DRESSING ROOM

The BRIDAL PARTY, in their reflection from a row of mirrors on wheels, imitate exotic dancers. They need help. JESSE, THE BRIDE silently pleads with her Caribbean-looking incredibly gorgeous MAID OF HONOR. Danley surrenders.

1ST SONG- DANCE ROUTINE

''Mustang Sally''(by Mack Rice)(Danley sings). This is a getting ready for the wedding dance. In strictly under garments, heels and Stetsons and using the mirrors as partners, they ALL rotate, ripple and wave.

EXT. VERANDA

Suddenly a precocious FLOWER GIRL shoves and hands the ushers two different colored cards.

FLOWER GIRL

Here! Jesse needs money. So, anybody that wants ta dance with any a them...Has ta pay you guys. Got it?

TRAVIS

So, who's g-g-got her's?

Ron,

THANK YOU SO MUCH. I just knew if I kept pestering you , you would finally help me. It's just that Im new to this and I'm having such a hard time finding the balance between CLARITY AND COLORING.

Do you know what I mean. Half the time I'm told my writing is confusing and half the time it's not "colorful" enough. It's really hard to find that BALANCE isn't it? It seems I can be one or the other but not both.

But again.

thank you, thank you, thank you

Ron, ok, ok, How's this? I promise this is the last time. Thank you so much, Janet.

FADE IN:

EXT. BELL FOUNTAIN HILL

Plush green hills of southern Iowa embroider a squalid little farm next to the Des Moines river (1989). LENT HAYES JR., a modern day ''John Wayne'' type in his youth, plows the nestled field.

EXT. TRACY, IOWA.-PARSONAGE

The remains of a two story brick school house tops the hill of this stranded little farm-town. Across the road leans a country blue Dutch style parsonage.

EXT. PARSONAGE- VERANDA

Two pint-size Stetson wearing USHERS (TRAVIS and BLAKE) leer through a cracked window.

INT. PARSONAGE- DRESSING ROOM

The BRIDAL PARTY, in their reflection from a row of rolling mirrors, imitate exotic dancers. Poorly. JESSE, THE BRIDE silently pleads with her gorgeous Caribbean-looking, maid of honor, DANLEY, who shrugs in a gesture of surrender.

1ST SONG- DANCE ROUTINE ''Mustang Sally''(by Mack Rice)(Danley sings).

This is a getting ready for the wedding dance. In under garments, heels and Stetsons with mirrors as partners, they ALL rotate, ripple and wave.

EXT. VERANDA

Suddenly a precocious FLOWER GIRL shoves the two ushers and hands them two primary colored cards.

FLOWER GIRL

Here! Jesse needs money. So, anybody that wants ta dance with any a them...Has ta pay you guys. Got it?

TRAVIS

So, who's g-g-got hers?

Ron,

Im pretty sure its pretty OBVIOUS that Im new to SCRIPT writing. I AM OLD to everything else (dancing, music, experience on stage etc.) but not writing a script. But thank you for the compliment anyway. And thank you so much for your help. You are a darling.

I like Harvey's.

Ron,

Oh, this is so....wonderful Your first page reeks of something that possibly I can help YOU with instead of vise versa.

My son spent 4 years in a Maximum security (those are the ones with walls instead of fences) and we visted him every other week. So maybe I can give you a few pointers.

************** EXT. ROADSIDE -- EVENING

A military cargo van slows for a curve. The back door swings open. A lithe figure, WILL MONDAY, 19, in military undershirt and khakis, leaps out, rolls into the grassy roadside. ****************

#1 Sorry, but hasn't this been done to death? I mean I assume Will Monday is a main character and he is either a military spy of sorts or excapee. So, can't he do this set up some other way?

Besides, at any speed, jumping out of a vehicle is not THAT easy. I know, I tried it once when I was in college and hitchhiking to campus (it was the 70's).

The guy talked like he wasnt going to take me where I wanted to go. Any way I was a dancer and in very good shape at the time and I sprained my ankle badly.

How about just driving down a rock road, (I dont know about Idaho but I think they have allot of those like we do) or goat trails for that matter. Anyway, then throw us off and HAVE A SMALL CAT OR DOG HURLED FROM THE WINDOW.

THEN, They just go into to a field, cave, barnyard etc and let him out. I mean I know it seems very limited on ways to do this but good grief how about changing periferal things then like my CAT OR DOG idea?

#2 Oh one more thing on your first scene. Going into the WOODS is pretty good during the day to hide. But I don't know any one, and I grew up on a farm, that would go into the WOODS AT NIGHT. Its STUPID, you would get lost immediately, no matter what.

******************** EXT. STATE PRISON - DAY

LEGEND: "STATE PRISON, BOISE, IDAHO"

The historic, nigh Medieval, Idaho State Pen, near Boise. Late afternoon light casts a golden patina over the grim concrete fortress.

***************************

#3 Don't most state prisons have a name? I mean like FORT MADISON STATE PENITENTIARY, ANAMOSA STATE PRISON , FOLSOM STATE PRISON OR SHAWSHANK STATE PRISON.

I've never heard of a prison just being called STATE PRISON OF (WHATEVER STATE).

#4 I don't think your description of the prison quite did it justice. I mean I hate prisons but the one my son was in LOOKED Magnificient. It was a CASTLE simply missing a MOAT in the middle of corn fields.

It was on the side of the hill of Grant Woods tiny birth town at the fork of the Buffalo and Wapsipinicon rivers. The public entrance-Adminitstration building has 4 pillars, 4 gold stone block turrets that fronted the matching golden stone walls with tourets at every corner.

Two enormous and menacing gold stone full LION sculptures (gargoles?) on the steps to the veranda. The building was fronted by two layers of very ornate trim balconys(widows walks?) topping the roof of the veranda.

I guess Im just saying doesnt words like TOURETS, PILLARS, WIDOWS WALKS, VERANDA, CASTLES, GARGOLES etc sound much more colorful and intriguing.

I mean I don't know what IDAHO's state prison looks like but if its (historic nigh Medieval) Im sure some of these kind of words would fit. And most of the old prisons do look the way I described ours.

*******************

INT. DR. PAM TRAVERS' OFFICE -DAY

At her desk, PAM TRAVERS, late 20s, prim, professional, before a replica of Antonella Da Messina's painting, "The Martyrdom of St. Sebastian" and a placard, "Home, Sweet Prison."

Opposite her, in a chair, sits a gangly convict, WEASEL. On the desk between them, a running micro tape recorder and a photo of Pam nuzzling a black cat.

********************

#5 Just for your information, most maximum security prisons do not have young women as counselors. I mean of course they have to have some but it really is not very common and if they do have any they are definitely not very attrative. Not that you said Pam was but Im afraid its coming and its just not true.

Definitely none as prison guards in a maximum security prison. I dont care what Con Air and some others tried to show its just not true.

#6

I don't recall my son ever describing any inmate as a weasel. I mean thats not to say some of them weren't. They were lifers,(we spent the first year figuring out what the elbow meant) drug dealers, rapists etc in there but he just never described them like that. Or the gurds for that matter.

It he called anyone a

WEASEL, it would have been the counselors. As far as I could tell THOSE people were extremely full of themselves, arogant, petty and spent a great deal of time prooving how tough and cool they were.

My son had several different counselors and not one of them seem to care about any of the prisoners or counseling any one. Everyone of them would jump the minute he would enter the room. My son is extremely huge. Then spent the entire time talking and not listening to any thing he had to say.

Sorry, Im not very fond of prison counselors as you can see. I thought more of the inmates and guards that I heard about than the COUNSELORS.

But anyway, just a few observations based on my own personal experiences. Please dont take me wrong but your first page just kind of sound like a book you read. There just seems to be allot of cliches.

I mean Im sure it is gramatically, structurally and technically PERFECT. It's just seems you know, alittle pretensious to me. Sorry. Please dont be mad.

I do really like your Maya blue skin though.

Oh...that all makes since then. I knew there had to be logical reasons it sounded the way it did. I was just taking it for face value, sorry.

So this is all science ficton, but you put some actual facts in it to make it real right? Okay I get it but.... maybe you want some more support for your premise. I mean, you say your story began with the an article you read about the sentencing in Idaho. A 5 year sentence (or a nickle) in inmate terminolgy, for bouncing a check really is not that uncommon. No matter how low the check is. I believe we have that law here too. Its just what the judge and prosecutors do with it thats different.

A nickle non mandatory non felon,can be served on probation (deferred sentence), but it can also be a mandatory, prison sentence felon.

It all depends on the judge and what color the defendant is. Usually minorities get the harsher sentences. (in any states). But in states like Idaho, Iowa, New Jersy , Maine etc where the white population is 90-100% white it is even more prevelant that the minorities get worse sentences. Anyway, Im sorry I will stop it, your script is science fiction , Im sorry, its wonderful. Honestly, I just get carried away with certain issues. Sorry

Just two more things. My experience with coverage analysts is that that they dont have allot of knowledge of movies either. I mean sure they are pretty well versed in the popular and recent but anything more the 10 years ago they dont have any idea what youre talking about.

Except SCRIPTMENTORS that is. Of all the different readers Ive used they honestly seem to be the all around most knowledgable. They would definitely know whats been done and what hasn't. But the others Im really not so sure about.

Of course they are good at script writing, technical, commerciality etc. But writing also takes experience and a thorough knowledge of other movies etc, too, doesn't it?

Anyway, I don't want to look up all of the movies where "a car driving around a corner slows down and someone jumps out and rolls down a hill", but I know Ive seen it many times. Someone help me here, hasn't this been done allot? I could swear it has.

Anyway, if it hasnt then fine, I was wrong about that and Im sorry. Im sorry a million times Ron , ok?

But....as far as the prison things? I know Im right because I experienced it first hand and did allot of research on sentencing etc etc. And from what I could tell, how an inmate acts really has nothing to do with him being released on parole early.

I mean, sure if he fights allot or breaks allot of rules he wont get paroled when hes suppose to. But that isnt really common because THEY ALL WANT OUT.

Breaking rules in prison really is not very common. So brain washing the inmates so they can get out sooner really doesnt make sense to me either.

Maybe brain washing the people in charge so they wont be such (you know whats) and give ones that dont have any previous records and dont break any rules at all, a break. But brain washing the inmates in general is not going to change the PRISON SYSTEM.

You are obviously taking for granted the prison system is perfect. There are just some errors in the some laws. I guess maybe I thought that too until I went trhough it. But please believe me, it's not.

The errors are in county officials and the prison system not so much, the laws. Sorry, THAT PART you have wrong.

I think thats wonderful Ron, creating a place where prison officials, judges and prosecutors are not corupt and the prisoners are really the only criminals there are.

Just like IT SHOULD BE.

Thank you, if that is what your story is then I will definitely love it.

Jack and Ron,

I know this may be a really stupid suggestion. But why not start a thread asking movie byters for a new title idea. You might really like something that they come up with.

I saw the logline on your script on Scriptsavy the month you received the honorable mention for it and I thought it was absolutely facinating. I mean, everyone has heard the Donners pass story but Im absolutely certain it was never made into a movie before, for some reason. Its always been so hush hush.

I love historic movies. Even if they are only partially true. I just watched John Adams and the Tudors not too long ago and adored them both so please perservere with this, no matter what.

Anyway, just a suggestion. They may be able to come up with something you like even better than Forlorn Hope.

Ok, OK, this is just to get you started. I know these are probably very bad but Im just giving you an example of how maybe the other movie byters can help you.

For Forlorn Hope how about:

Beyond Shame or The Longest 70 miles (or however long Donners Pass is)

and for Eclipse How about:

No night, No day or Surpassing Desires

I know they're really bad, but I think sometimes it just helps to hear suggestions from other people just to get your own juices going again and out of a rut (about the title that is). My first script has had about 5 different titles because I cant seem to find one I really really like.

Anyway, goodluck.

In Sixth Sense the main ghost (Bruce Willis) did appear with other people and he appeared by him self. Thats because he was a ghost not solely in one persons mind like (A beautiful mind). Ghosts are usually confined to places not people.

So see there are two different kinds of phantoms right there. And Harvey was never SEEN by the audience at all. He was a pooka. So see thats kind of a third kinda of phantom. Theres actually several different kinds so it just depends on what KIND you are talking about.

Angels. Angels seem to be confined to certain people too.

I always thought is would be neat if someone actually created a dual reality that seems to coexist along with ours.They dont see or hear us and we dont see or hear them. But then suddenly someone accidently somehow tears into the the co-existing reality.

Of course in different ways that has been kinda done, Quatum leap, Honey I shrunk the kids, Charmed. But any way it sure sounds like allot of fun. Good luch.

Oh I know, at a different speed from us so naturally we dont hear or see them. They and their world is faster than ours. See?

Timothy,

That's right , I forgot about that, Harvey does open the gate. Isn't that at the very end though so it leaves the audience believing that this imaginary pooka maybe really isn't imaginary after all? I can't remember. It's been such a long time since I saw Harvey. It's a good one though.

Thomas,

really? Theres a movie like that already. See? EVERYTHINGS been done already.

I guess I was kind of thinking in terms of drugs. I mean the only way I kind think of for a person to speed up or slow down (so they could see our alternate world) is to either take valium or downers to slow down or speed or uppers to speed up. See.

Is that what they did in " the others". I never saw that one, I guess Ill have to check it out.

Actually , I think its happening with Ron. How in the world you understood what in the world he said is beyond me.

But listen to him, he's definitely on drugs or of another world. He should be a big help to you.

Ron, I like yuh but you're nuts. Whisch is actually a fantastic quality for a writer.

Jack,

Are you serious? You worked on that for 10 years and suddenly someone else did a Donners party script too? I am so bummed. I think that is terrible. I bet after 10 years yours is so much better too.

I just cant believe it. I know for a fact its never been done before and then all of a sudden both of you do it? Im so sorry. Dont pitch it though. The other one might not be any good and bomb or it just might not get the audience.

So just wait a couple years and see. AND GET A NEW GREAT TITLE. Barb seems to be pretty good at title's, ask her to help you.

I bet you feel like I do every time I see a terrible dance musical (sequel or remake) do really well at the box office (Mamma Mia and Highschool Musical 3) for instance. And I can't even get a producer or agent to read mine.

I know for a fact its better than those. (I have alot of dance-music and stage experience). So I kind of know how you feel. But I guess that is the risk you take when you do an actual historic event that really isnt yours isnt it? Somebody (well known) takes it. Again, Im sorry. But like I said, MAYBE it will bomb.

I see allot of films by known writers bombing these days. Ones they are so... sure will do well. Its really kind of funny they think using someone new with a new idea is so...risky but duh... (THE NEW ONES) are the ones that crash the box office and win awards.(JUNO, BROKE BACK MOUNTAIN, ETC ETC.)

Anyway, hang in there Jack you just might get a break with YOUR Donners Party story. I truly hope so.

Hey wait a minute, I thought the deadline for that was Nov 15, I just entered it this weekend.

Well thats just my luck, I enter a contest thats already expired. Im such a ditz.

But you're my hero Ron, congratulations. good luck.

Ron,

It looks like Im the one that started one of those "idiot maniac moments" this time.

SORRY EVERYBODY.

Hey Moviebyters,

I just found a movie for TV in developement for MTV, that has a log line very similar to mine. I mean I've had my title and logline all over the place for a couple of years now, but I never worried about anyone trying to take it because mine has been copy written a couple of times and allot of my story is true.

But it sure sounds like they got the idea from me. Again, its still in developement so maybe it will be nothing like mine at all, but I guess it kind of worries me. Should I be?

Its a dance musical love story involving a "womanaizing cowboy" and another race female. Thats basically my logline too.

Thier's is Texas mine is Iowa. There female is a maxican salsa dancer , mine is a part black ministers daughter college student. Nevermind, Im getting angry just talking about it.

I know darn well they got the idea from me. The story may be different from mine but you cant tell me that just off the the wall they came up with THAT idea. Its never been done before . So they didnt just come up with it.

And if that FLIP SIDE THING is suppose to cheer me up. Guess what? It didn't.

And another thing. Their movie is in DEVELOPEMENT which means they havent even written the dagone thing yet, they just like the idea and they're going to just make a story out of it.

Well, thats just fine, it wont be as good as mine no matter what because Ive worked on mine for 3 years, its based on allot of true things and.....I bet any amount of money I know a heck of allot more about country and dancing than they do. So I don't care.

Oh yes I do , Im going to cry.

My idea was not the kind that just any one could come up and even if they did , just ANYONE couldnt do it. First of all its a dance musical combining country dancing and hip hip (in my case) Salsa in THEIRS. Now how many people do you know have the knowledge and experience to do that? Not many.

Second theres the race issue. Im mixed race writing about a mixed race relationship. It doesnt sound like their writer is mexican and they are calling it TEX-MEX?

Anyway, you are not going to confince me that someone over there didnt see my logline and decide to change it alittle and make up a story. They DID and IM upset because Ive sent query letters galore to MTV and they won't even speak to me. But they want my idea?

Im going to cry again.

A writing sample? A WRITING SAMPLE! Are you out of your mind?

Now Im really going to cry.

Don't worry about it? Oh yeah, then let me see, if and when I ever get mine off the ground it will be like:

You know, she copied it off of that MTV movie, TEX-MEX.

TEX-MEX indeed! On second thought I think Ill just choke myself.

Walter,

This is MTV's logline for Tex-Mex (In-developement) right off of IMBD.

"A Texas cowboy attempts to renounce his womanizing ways and focus on winning a state-wide dance competition with a Mexican salsa dancer he's fallen in love with."

My logline for a very log time, on several different Script selling sites was, until recently:

" A womanizing cowboy in Iowa falls for a black ministers daughter, college student from Chicago. A dance musical".

A "womannizing" cowboy falling for a mexican or a mixed race young woman in a dance musical has NEVER been done, so you can't tell me that both SOMEONE at MTV and myself just happen to come up with this idea at aproximately the same time.

Again, actually I started this script 20 years ago when it actually happened and picked it up again 3 years ago because no one was doing any thing like it and ballroom dancing seem to be so popular now. And again, Ive had it all over the place on the net so Im sorry you cant say its a coincidence. Allot of people have looked at my title and logline and many have seen my excerpt so its not coincidental.

Naturally they are going to make the story as different at they can but it is still going to look like I took the idea from them instead of vice versa because they are getting it done first.

No matter what, its going to look like the same idea and I really resent that. Like I said, there is a lot of true things in my story and now no matter what its not going to look like a brand new idea, theirs will.

Eric, To answer your question, no I dont think I do have much of an imagination. This was based on true events of mine.

So YES I am REAL PISSED!

Eric, what makes you think I want to be a screenwriter? Im an exdancer. I had a dance musical idea. I wrote it. I didn't have any plans to do anything thing else.

And you're wrong about the similarities. In the world of dance the similarities to the two loglines are very close. Maybe in another genre they arnt but in dancing they are close enough to be concidered the same.

People going to see a dance musical will see them as the same just like they see the Step up series similar to the Fame series and the Highschool musical series similar to the Greece series. They're close enough that Ill be concidered copying MTV's original movie and IM NOT!

THEY COPIED ME!

Terry,

Thank you. That's actually what I wanted to know when I started this. Even if I could proove it, which I think I can, an idea cant be copy written. And I didnt have any choice but to advertize it any way. So if somebody wants to take it and change it and use. Its actually kind of flattering isnt it?

Kind of like Ron said with the flip side thing. Maybe if they do really well with it then mine will be hot. Thank you for putting things back in perspective for me. Im not really worried with the story being the same just the idea and theres actually a whole lot more to my story than just that logline.

So thanks again Terry , your're the best.

EXT. GRAND TERRACE - NIGHT JACK and JILL head into to the crowd on the dance floor.

EXT. DANCE FLOOR

They hold each other closely. Bob, on stage, waves to the people and talks into the microphone.

BOB Hello everyone!

JACK (to Jill) Do you know how to foxtrot?

JILL That old dance? Of course!

BOB Ok, everyone--

JACK (to Jill) So why did you--

BOB (O.S.) Let's dance.

How's this? For Example. I mean I know the characters won't be centered on this, but I think you can get the idea. Isn't this kind of the best way?

Thank you , Harvey.

Well, if he's a first time writer it's wonderful no matter how you look at it. Congratulations Brad, where ever you are. You give the rest of us hope.

Shell, Walter and Ron,

Thank you.

Thomas, I agree that MTV seems to be a little shabby these days. But music-dance wise they're about the only game in town.

I love Master-piece theatre.

Anyway, sure there are other producers and studios that will do a dance-musical on occasion. Disney(Highschool musical, Step up) New Line (Hairspray) Tom Hanks (Mamma Mia).

But in the past 20 years MTV has pretty much been considered the experts so if your're doing a full fledged dance-musical you have to try them first.

I agree that dance-musicals do seem to be vary similar (they are all love storys, someone aspiring to be a great dancer etc etc). But the trend in the past 20-30 years has been all ghetto- dance musicals too.

Recently THAT has changed a little with (High school musical I,II and III, Mamma Mia and the Hanna Montana franchise). And since they have had allot of sucess, other people seem to want to try it too. They are remaking FAME and FOOTLOOSE. (They are not really brave about it though since they are going with remakes).

My point is I don't think you can shun MTV when you're thinking about ANY KIND of song-dance musical (which that is the only type of scripts I write) because they are STILL THE MASTERS.

Shell,

I think I have to get someone in Hollywood to read it first.

I'm just baffled, it's like they're all falling all over each other trying to get a dance-musical in production. Ive never seen so many remakes and sequels in my life.

It's pretty understandable though since they ARE ALL doing so well right now. Mamma Mia ended up with over 500 m and Highschool musical III is headed there. It's only been out what? 3 weeks and they already have over 250 m?

It's ridiculous how well they are doing. And neither one of THOSE TWO had very good singing or dancing in them. And the story? Ok Mamma Mia was kind of cute but Highschool musical was almost identical to Grease.

It just shows how much the moviegoers LOVE musicals (singing AND dancing) right now.

I guess what I don't understand is why they seem to worry so much ABOUT A NEW ONE FROM A NEW WRITER. I mean good grief they don't really cost THAT much to make and chances are right now, just about any thing will fly.

Whatever. Hopefully, Ill still be around when they get around to reading me.

I would like a copy too Ben if that's possible. Thank you.

Thank you, Frederick.

I have a favor to ask, which will probably get me boo'd off the board again. But, I'm putting it on here to get opponions and concensus too.

Anyway, is it possible to start limiting the number of words everyone puts on their loglines? I mean good grief some loglines are so.....long now, mine only stays on the home page 2 minutes now and its off the board.

I mean, I understand that everyone is trying really hard to get their own scripts read but it's not the LENGTH but the CONTENT that matters isn't it?

Anyway, it's just a possibility you could consider. If of course most other moviebyters agree with me. I might be just whining as usual.

Thank you for listening.

Oh, and by the way to the rest of you. I find that when I update one script and someone looks at it, they look at all of the rest of my scripts too.

So I really don't think it's necessary to update ALL.... of your scripts everytime you update.

Thank you, Janet

Here, Timothy this should be a little better. You have to remember to make breaks. Hope you don't mind I couldnt resist.

FADE IN:

FULL SHOT - RAGING STORM -- DAY

A corporate Learjet darts threw the clouds as lightening flashes all around it.

P.O.V. LEARJET -- DAY

Visibility is obscured until the clouds part and a sudden lightening strike illuminates a gigantic pyramid shaped building in the distance, Omega Corp.

INT. OMEGA CORP - CONFERENCE ROOM -- DAY

The worlds richest man, JOHN ANDRUS(50), sets at the head of a long conference table daydreaming. There's 10 advisors around the table wearing black mourning bands. Everyone has a folder marked SAFE-T-BELT in front of them.

A stuffy old British accountant gives his report in the bg.

STUFFY ACCOUNTANT Our first quarter profits were down to a poultry one hundreed billion dollars.

John's startled from his day dream by the voice of his childhood friend, wise cracking, DAN HARTLY(48) who sets next to him.

DAN John.

STUFFY ACCOUNTANT Due in large part by the somewhat questionable...

The four walls of the room hold large, 9 digit clocks that track days, hours, minutes and seconds. These "TIME CLOCKS" are everywhere in the building and count backwards to zero. On edge, John fidgets as he glances up at the time clock as IT REACHES- INSERT DIGITAL READOUT: 000 24 00 00

JOHN (to Dan) Forbes should have been here by now.

STUFFY ACCOUNTANT Acquisitions of no less than...[/code]

The same for James:

I/E. GARBAGE TRUCK CAB - DAY

A garbage truck is parked in a fast food parking lot. Two garbage men sit in the garbage truck. A garbage man stands outside the passenger side door.

They eat sandwiches, drink coffee. The radio plays. The men stare off into space. They are dirty.

CLIFF Sanderson is a white man, a bigger guy, just reached his 40's. He is the driver, the senior on his team. Abraham "KENNY" Gibson is a black man. He's in his upper 20's. He was just promoted to co-driver.

HECTOR Herrera is the youngest on the crew though not much younger than Kenny. He's the low man on the totem pole. Hector hangs onto the back of the truck. Hector turns to the truck cab.

HECTOR Hey guys, can I sit in the truck today? Kenny takes a bite of his sandwich still staring into space.

KENNY No.

HECTOR Cliff? C'mon!

Cliff holds his coffee.

CLIFF Hector, I don't like it when my thighs touch yours.

HECTOR I'll be on the curb.

Hector splits.

KENNY This sandwich is good.

CLIFF I love this stuff. I told you it would be good.

The cb radio clicks. A female voice is on the line. It's TRISHA.

Now, if you're lucky Ron will be by to critique them for you. He's really good at it, trust me. It's just, I think maybe he's on vacation or something because he hasn't been on the board in a while. So you might have to wait.

I think any things OK as long as you don't try to pass it off as "a true story" isn't it? I mean there are allot of true things in my script but there are some untrue ones too, so I don't even try to say it's a true story.

There are usually places in contests and on marketing sites that ask you "is this based on a true story". Just say NO.

Well, if he is right then I think its pretty obvious what the whole problem is. There's not enough agents to go around. Maybe if there were they wouldn't act like such "you know whats".

Its sounds like being an agent is probably the way to go, not a writer. They probably make money hand over fist. But of course they still have what most of us don't.....CONNECTIONS.

Hey, I have an idea. How about all of you ex-directors, producers, actors, camera men trying to be writers now, try to be agents first? You could help some of us (know no body new writers) out. Then maybe we would ALL have a shot. Just a thought.

James,

I think Patrick's right. Your first page is a little uneventful and it should be. Not that it couldn't be.

I mean, say one of these lugs starting choking and everyone does every thing and anything not to perform the Himlick (spelling) and then of course someone does and theres a big scene about. After the touching thigh thing of course.

I think even in a drama there can be some comedic moments, Ive seen them in many dramatic movies. I think what Patrick means though is that the 1st page sets the stage so maybe you wouldnt want a silly 1st page.

But you have to do something. He's right, a bunch of guys....JUST eating sandwichs is not going to get that page turned.

Patrick,

Here's yours too. Of course, I really like your 1st page. Ok, Ron, heres your 1st vote , mine is for Patrick. Sorry Paula. But, yours is my second. I LOVE westerns.

FADE IN: EXT. TUNNEL - SUNSET A long, black passenger train, locomotive PUFFING steam, exits a tunnel. The mournful WHISTLE blows. As the last car passes, four horesmen wait on the other side. They cross the tracks.

EXT. FORT SMITH - DAY

An Old West town. Dirt streets. Wooden sidewalks. Saloons and dry goods stores. A white church at one end of town.

SUPER: Fort Smith, Arkansas A quiet morning on Main Street. Townsfolk shop. Cowboys ride slowly past the jail. An old man whittles. Four horses are hitched outside the bank. A GUNSHOT rings out inside. Then a second SHOT.

A woman on the street SCREAMS. Panicked townsfolk run for cover. The bank doors BURST open. Four OUTLAWS with bandannas over their faces and guns out rush for the horses.

A DEPUTY steps into the jailhouse doorway and FIRES his pistol. An outlaw stumbles and falls. BIG BILL SLADE, 30s, tall and burly, shoots the deputy with a CRACK from his rifle. The lawman topples backward.

The three surviving outlaws jump on their horses and ride hard, FIRING their guns in the air. A nervous SHOPKEEPER with a shotgun steps out of his store and BLASTS at Big Bill but hits his horse.

The SCREAMING horse falls atop Big Bill, trapping him. His rifle lies in the dirt, just out of reach. Outlaw OLD PETE, 40s, balding, wheels his horse.

OLD PETE

Big Bill!

BIG BILL

Git outta here!

Larry, I think your're right. Hollywood seems to be trying so hard to find what the movie goers like (without straying to a new writer) they are remaking movies that have no buisness being remade.

They have been working on doing a remake of Footloose for several years now but they are getting so much flack from the "baby boomers" I dont think theyre going to get it done. But if they do I dont think it will do very well.

Its like they dont seem to understand its THE NEW IDEAS FROM NEW WRITERS that boom the box office and win awards. Not remakes or sequels. But hey, maybe they'll figure it out before we're old and grey.

I think maybe I could use some help on my logline too. I mean I do get allot of hits on it but no (reads) so I must be doing something wrong. Any ideas for my (Country Ballroom)?

INCREDIBLE DANCING is the last thing Reverend Green's daughter from Chicago expects when she attends her college roommate's country wedding in Iowa. Well, almost the last......

Patrick,

I guess I try to keep reminding my self of a quote from the first screenwriting book that I read. "If your script is good then eventually it will sell, no matter what all of the obstacles are". Which obviously for us with no connections, there are many.

I know that doesnt seem very helpful but I do think its true. If you think you are spending too much money then simply dont spend so much and just get coverage reports (occasionally) and enter a contest that looks good to you (occasionally).

If Im right then you will eventually get picked up no matter what. If your script is good, that is and if its not, then spending allot of money isnt going to help.

Patrick,

Basically, I was just trying to say the same thing Terry did. For me, even if I ultimately find it my script is horrible and it will never sell, I try to view it as a learning experience.

I mean like Terry said, some people take classes and major in screen writing and I never did that so this is actually a cheap way to learn how to write a script and I have definitely learned allot. If this one doesnt make it, well, I know how to do it now and maybe another brain storm will hit then I wont have to go through all of this agony learning the trade again. I can just write.

So, please dont see it as some kind of waste or scam. Its a learning experience too. Like my mother would say, hardships build character.

Thomas,

Really? I thought I was giving too much information not too little. I'm confused.

Walter and Thomas,

I see, so it would be better to say:

Country Ballroom:

INCREDIBLE DANCING is the last thing a black minister's daughter from Chicago expects when she attends her college roommate's country wedding in Iowa. Well, next to the ardent admirer in a Stetson, that is.

Essentially, I was THAT direct and informative before and I still didn't get any (reads). Like I said, allot of hits but no reads. So, I really don't think THAT's my problem, but if you say so, Ill try it. Thank you.

Thomas,

Thank you again. It isn't quite the same as it was before. So maybe you are right. We'll see.

Jean,

The focus in my script is the "incredible country ballroom dancing in Iowa" and "the somewhat unusual budding romance between a black minister's daughter and a local cowboy". Not that the minister's daughter is a dancer.

As a matter of fact I really don't say any where in my script that she's a "dancer" and she's definitely not aspiring to be a dancer. She's a college student studying to be a teacher who just happens to know how to sing and dance because of Church choirs and dancing growing up.

I think your version of my logline changes the focus.

Thomas and Walter,

I just checked my (hits) and I just got more than double the hits today than I have in a long....time. I mean its still not (reads) yet but hey, we have to start somewhere.

Anyway again, maybe you were right. Thank you both, again.

Janet

Sorry Patrick, if it wasnt so pathetic and true it would be funny wouldnt it.

Ive had the same experiences though (not quite so blatant) but close.

Just to play the devils advocate here a little bit. Maybe they just dont know what they really want and when they see it thrown back in their face they realize its really not what they wanted.

I pesonally think some of them are so specific it makes no sense. I mean good grief if THATS exactly what you want why dont you just write it yourself?

I mean its kind of silly. They are looking for new and original ideas and writing but it has to be a 21 year old romantic, drama, urban, dance musical, strong female in the vein of "FLASH DANCE".

What?

Walter,

I truly think they have gotten allot more specific NOW. Actually none of that really bothers me because I think I have the kind of script that would fit in allot of different categories.

Patrick,

I think partially what happens is they see a movie they like that did really well so they have in their mind they want something like it . But when they see it put into words it doesn't look the same that they invisioned.

First of all I think they need to relax and be more open minded.

Second, they need to stop judging us first time writers. I think that it what hurts us more than anything else. If we are first time writers without a sell they just automatically think we aren't any good.

Come on you guys out there, we're just like anybody or anything else. Some of us are good writers, some are bad. Some of us have NEW ideas and some of us have rehashed stuff.

Also, I think they have biases about certain things too. I mean like in my case when I submit my logline they immediately see an romance between two different races. Well, this could be triggering some unwritten code not to touch THOSE kind of scripts because they just don't do well, unless they are REALLY , REALLY GOOD and the chances of that are slim (from a brand new writer so Im not going to try it).

Its hard to know what all of thier (dos or dont touch type of scripts are) but if they dont try one of us they are never going to find that AMAZING movie that kicks butt at the box office and WINS allot of awards. They're not going to find it with their multi remakes and sequels and same old writers that don't have any more NEW ideas.

Surely they know that eventually they have to lighten up and just try us. Hopefully they will learn that after enough NEW SCRIPT/NEW WRITER BIG SUCCESSES.

Actually, thats what I think is really good about these professeional coverage readers that have been in the buisness. They are pretty good about telling us allot of Do's and Don'ts.

The problem is, some don'ts fall in to the category of unique and different and intrigueing so you have to stick with THOSE don'ts to keep you script different from everyone elses. It just means its going to take longer.

But I think they will lighten up some day, they have to. Its their buisness remember, to find NEW MOVIES. The old ones can only go so far.

And the bullshitting part? That doesnt make any sense. Why would they intentionaly do that? Maybe it seems that why but I don't think so. Its just like I said before, they're fickle.

I just started entering contests this year. I entered (10) I think I read that somewhere. Most of them I entered all 3 scripts but a few only one. Its funny but the ones I only entered one in I received some kind of placing = 3. So then I took about a 8 month break to improve my main script.

I got allot of coverage and did allot of rewriting. Now Ive entered it in 5 (all very different kind of contests, ranging from no prize to 10,000 prize for first place, musical ones, spiritual uplifting ones and regional one.)

Im not putting a "guaranteed this or that type of contest" on my guidelines. I think you have to try different ones and types unless you know for a fact they are pure scams.

I will enter 5 more when I see 5 more I like, then I will see what happens.

I personally dont like to keep spending money. But I also know, like I said before, if my script is very good, its going to get spotted (eventually) I really believe that. And, since I dont have any connections in Hollywood, I have to enter contests for THAT to happen.

I think what you have to do like everyone else on this thread is saying is you have to set limits, boundaries and goals for your self as far as contests go. As far as coverage goes I think thats up to you. I personally havent seen that coverage does anything except make your script better. So no matter what, your not wasting money there. Unless of course your script is pure crap and will never go no where anyway and in that case yes it is a waste.

But I think most people on this board are fairly intelligent and if their script was nothing but crap they would know it. It really doesnt take a rocket scientist to pick those out.

So basically its just a matter of PACING yourself.

Thomas, Walter and Ron,

Sorry, Ive been so excited I haven't got on to thank you 3 again. I think you were all three definitely right because Ive just received several downloads and several synopsis reads in the last week and I barely got THAT in the whole 6 months Ive been on the board.

Again, thank you so much. I had no idea being just a little clearer and direct on my logline could help so much.

Wait. Unless of course it was just you three. Well, no matter what it looks much better. Thank you so much.

Turn the tricks, buy final draft. It just makes your life 100 times easier. You basically don't have to think about any thing except writing. All you're doing with any other solution is putting off the inevitable. Sorry, but it's the truth. New writers have enough strikes against them. Get the right soft ware.

We go on and on about how to write a good script but the bottom line is, I think, is figuring out what a good movie is, first.

I mean naturally actors, scenery, costume and lots of money can make or break a script. But I dont think those things would alter MY view of a BAD movie-script. So really, what makes a GOOD movie-script.

I just checked out and saw (the mongol) yesterday. I thought it was wonderful and I didn't get out of my chair at all (usually a dead give away for me). Now, obviously there has been several movies about Gangis Kahn. But....not like this one. It told us things about him that we never heard before and focused more on his terrible childhood and all of the bad things he had to go through. They were all things that I had never heard before.

So, was it the dialogue or the description that made it so good for me? Definitely not, it was in subtitles for goodness sakes. And there definitely wasnt any thing clever or fancy about the description.

I believe it was simply because there was so many things about this man that I had never heard about before. And not only that, there were several THINGS in the story that I had never heard of before. So for me it was just ALL the things I learned while watching the movie.

Other movies that are on my top ten list are Lion in Winter, Hunt for Red October, Gone with the Wind, Wizard of Oz, West Side Story, Friendly Persuasian, Naked Prey, Pride and Predjudice (the one with Lawrence Olivier and Greer Garson) Kelly's Heros and The Bridge over river Kwai.

Now these are all very different from each other and all different genres. And except for Lion in Winter, none of them had exceedingly clever dialogue or description. However, I think what they all did have was that (when they were first released of course) they were ALL so very different from any thing else that had gone before them.

Yes, Im a romantic and yes I love musicals but also, I want a NEW experience every time I sit down to watch a movie. Although I think Ive watched Hunt for Red October at least 20 times. But thats because it moved so fast and it had so many things in it that I was not very familiar with that I had to watch it several times to GET everything.

I have seen almost zero remakes of old movies and Im not crazy about sequals. Unless of course its of one that I adored like Gone with the wind.

So, I guess for me, first and foremost is how really NEW AND DIFFERENT is it. How about everyone else? Is it really about great dialogue and description or the HOW DIFFERENT the story is?

Actually, it looks pretty d....gone impressive to me. Is the final 50 really out of 1500 all over the world?

I know the rest of you guys are use to this stuff but this is just the 1st contest of my second round of 10 that I tried and Im so excited I cant see straight.

Congratulations, Jage, Thomas (for both of yours) and Michael. If I missed someone, Sorry, but Im so excited I gotta go submit my whole script.

GOOD LUCK TO EVERYBODY. I really had no hope for this one because being FREE I figured allot of people entered and obviously they did. This is so cool!

I received an honorable mention from GAFFERS, was a finalist from Sound Heritage and a quarter finalist in Story pros Awards this year. So its not exactly the first time I made the cut.

But it sure feels like it. So again, GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE.

I don't think you can go wrong if you simply write about what you know. Whatever that is (whether Hollywood thinks its believable or not).

My script is all white, except the leading lady and leading man. One is half black and one is slightly (unrecognizably) black.

The story is this way because its what I mostly know. I am more white than I am black and indian so I know mostly about the white culture where I live. Iowa (which is more rural than urban). But in relationships I know more about mixed race and inter racial couples than any thing else so thats what I wrote about in my romance.

I also have years of dance training and experience so naturally my script is also a dance musical set in Iowa.

Anyway, Ive preached this on this board before in different contexts besides race. But its just that its seems much easier to me if you write about that which you are most familiar. What ever THAT is.

Pankaj,

To be honest I can't remember where I first found this contest but you can locate it on the net at Free Screenwriting contest.com. Its put on by Cherub Films.

Of course, since we're in the final round its done for this year but I think it might come up semi annually, Im not sure. Its the first time I ever entered it.

Anyway, you enter the first 10 pages of your script and they judge from 1500 of those and then come up with about 50 finalists that they want to see their whole script from.

So, no matter what you do, work on your first 10 pages. Then enter. It looks like it is extremely diversified in all different ways. The rest of the guys all have thrillers, sci-fi, dramas, action etc scipts and mine is a romantic-comedy dance musical. See? All very different.

Good Luck and Happy New Year.

Bobbette,

Oh, in your first post you asked how to describe someone whose mixed race.

Well, first of all, if thats a part of the story , like it is in mine, it will come out (the actually parts) in the rest of the script. So when you're describing the characters (at first) you're simply giving a brief discription of how the person looks.

The description I gave my leading lady was Carribean-looking. Now, my Character is not in any way Spanish, Puerto Rican, Cuban etc. However, I find allot of half black and half white women LOOK mexican,indian or arabic. See? You're not trying to be technical about their race(parts) in the first description just (close) to how they REALLY look.

I hope that helps.

Oh, I also described the male as "John Wayne type in his youth". So, if nothing else and you really pictured someone like Mariah Carey then go ahead and say something like "Mariah Carey look alike".

I think most people are pretty familiar with who Mariah Carey is so you can use her name and they should know who you're talking about.

I believe Mariah is probably only 1/4 black not 1/2 though. She is extremely light to be 1/2. To be technical that is.

Just one more thing. I completely sympathize with your angst over wether or not to even bother with making your characters mixed race because Hollywood will do what it wants and chances are they will simply make them all white.

I am still extremely angry at all of the BIG roles that were written for Mixed race, Indian or Hispanic women that went to white women (Coal Miners Daughter, West Side Story, The Unforgiven) to name just a few.

It seems like Hollywood cant seem to get over this "if were going to put different races together we have to do it in such a way to not offend anyone or loose our BIG WHITE AUDIENCE" attitude. It is really annoying when THAT was exactly the way the part was written. But they still seem to think "We cant handle it". Good grief.

Although, I have seen signs that they do try to diversify as much as their egos will let them. Expecially on television. But I feel sometimes like why not just chuck the whole thing and not make my characters any color but of course (in Hollywood) that means they will be ALL white.

So I decided well, I just have to be as honest in my story as I possibly can. And if youre being honest then there will be things in your script that will be specific to MIXED race characters. Mixed race people in our society are still treated as though they are the other race, not white. People dont call people that are 1/2 or even just 1/4 black, white. They call them black. I know, my family is filled with 1/4 to all blacks and everyone of us is considered by (whites) as "black".

So if your script has mixed race characters in it (interacting with white characters) and you are being honest in your script, then there is no way that Hollywood can change their race because it is part of the story and it would change the story.

Of course Hollywood "might not think its believable" or they may not like it which is something we all deal with in different ways. But like I said in the very beginning, if you stick with what you know best you cant go wrong. Its you, its unique to you and its honest.

It was wonderful and it's a perfect example of what Ive been preaching about. Write what you know.

The writer of this script or at least one of the writers obviously has first hand experience of poverty in India which you don't learn from research or books.

Very few of us have experiences like that, but we all have different lives and different experiences from anyone else. Use that. And see this movie, it was marvelous.

And I dont think the male lead should be up for an academy but the youngest Jamal and his brother definitely should. THEIR acting was sensational.

I don't think the acting was anything exceptional in THIS film. Except of course for the younger Jamal and his brother. Although the leading lady in this was absolutely gorgeous.

Also, the cinematography was nothing out of the ordinary for these days although they did do allot of jumping back and forth. And the diallogue? I don't think so.

No, I definitely think in this ones case it was purely the story. Which strictly came from the writer.

I didn't care for the first 20 minutes either. I don't understand why some filmmakers feel like they have to REALLY shock you at first. That part definitely had nothing to do with why I thought this was a really good movie.

I liked it because it had a heart, it seemed extremely honest and it was very unique and different.

Also, the movie does show extreme poverty and how this young man survived it with all of his values in tact.

It was a very uplifting movie but of course it had to show the extremes that he came from to show his real sucess.

I like the issue of sterotypes of the poor. They automatically assumed he had to be cheating because he grew up in poverty and couldn't possibly know the answers. I think those kind of predjudices against the poor exist here too.

CONGRATULATIONS, Patrick, Michael, Steven, Robert and anyone else I missed.

Im so bummed because I wanted this one so bad but thats what I get for trying to compete with the big boys.

Good luck. I envy you so much.

Sorry Terry,

My eyes were blinded by tears when I looked at the "C's" this morning. It's a wonder I didn't miss Patrick's too.

Good luck. I'm sure you will do fantastic!

The fact that a story is "believable" (within its own relm)is what makes it a good story. Otherwize its not very good and you loose your audience and your buyers.

Take the Movie "Twilight" for instance, a lovestory between a human girl and a vampire. A totally unreal concept. BUT.....if there really were vampires then the story would be completely believable. See what I mean?

There were black and white lovestorys in the time period you talk about otherwize how did so many of us end up mixed race? Well, don't answer that, I believe there had to be love storys too.

Anyway, I believe in the south right after the civil war blacks were treated much better for a while, then the Jim Crow laws came along. So I would say maybe its possible (the way your love story sounds any way)but it would still be a "not open" relationship. There were laws you know in almost every state at that time against marriage between whites and indians and whites and blacks.

And you also have to remember, clear up until the 1960's (respectable) poor and middle class women just simply did not have sex out of marriage. There was no effective birthcontrol for them and there was just still too much social disapproval of women in those days except of course if they were "fallen" women anyway, which I can garantee a librarian wouldnt be.

Anyway, see? It is really hard to just write "just a story" when you're involving actual history unless of course you want to just go the fairy tale, A knights tale route and not even try to make it believable.

Have you ever seen a Band of angels and Showboat? These were black women and white male love storys in the time period that you talk about and they were "just storys" but they were "believable" because they addressed all of the racial issues at the time.

Possibly your critics meant that you didn't address racism and it was in full swing (everywhere in the United States) at that time. Although, there really was allot more racial mixing those days than most white people, these days, like to admit. But I agree with your critics that the more believable you can make it, the better.

I definitely dont believe your whole concept is unbeleivable you just maybe need to tweak it alittle.

I didn't say beat the race issue to death. Just explain why it doesn't exist for these two. Especially the white man. When most other white men in the United States in that day and age would not dare such social disapproval, why does he?

He would have to be very strong, independant, maybe even a recluse and doesnt have any need for social approval. And what about her and why does she suddenly just accept his "change of heart"?

Remember. Im on your side. I believe that the ratio of people in the United States that are mixed race is allot higher than our concensus shows and that being the case black and white mixing was very common. Its just that most people believe it was a result of rape or something else repugnant. Which means they are afraid to write about it.

But I dont beleive ALL of it was THAT. I beleive there were love storys. As a matter of fact I know there were. My grandparents married just at the turn of the century. He was a white farmer and she was half white and half indian and black. I was very young when they both died in the late 60's so I know very little of their love story.

But I do know that even though they were farmers and didnt have to deal with people very much they still were very careful not to let anyone know very much about my grandmothers heritage. It was all very hush hush. I think since she was so light people just thought she was Italian or Mexican. I dont know I honestly dont because no one in the family would ever talk much about it and my father died shortly after his parents did.

Anyway, my point being that there are allot of social hurtles in a story like your talking about so I think your critics were just saying try to make it "believable", use what you know and you cant go wrong.

Actually there are no true whites, is what I was saying.

Oh great, more good news. There's a ringer in my little "Free" contest.

Patrick, what do you say we figure out a way to keep this guy out any more contests?

HeY! maybe if he wins this one he'll forfeit the other one. SWEET.

Just kidding, good luck to both of you.

Yvonne,

OMG, I just read your excerpt and I really liked it. I dont see any thing unbeleivable or out of place with it.

I mean of course the ghost but the fact that you're even doing a black/white romance (and by the way I could easily see Halle Berry and Mathew in this) in that time period is different enough that it negates the tired old ghost haunting thing.

Anyway, I personally think its great and you're definitely on the right track. I think your 1st 10 pages are wonderful. Keep up the good work. And forget about everything I said about making it more believable and addressing race issues. I think you already do. I just didnt know. Sorry.

As usual Thomas you are taking things too literally and personally. It was simply figuratively speaking on our part, ok? But if not, Im sorry. We were of course exagerating.

Now for Yvonne. Here's the absolutely only things I thought possibly needs improvement on your script. Well, the first 10 pages anyway but I would love to read the rest sometime if you want to email it to me.

1. Please somehow get Final draft or Movie majic.

2. You use too many words to discribe things. Try cutting down on your descriptions. You use too many words.

3. Put you 1st page on the blog on this board "whip out your first ten pages" so other movie byters can help you. Especially Ron. He's really good at spotting things.

Ill put something on it to bring it up to the top so you can see which one I mean.

3. You have the Apalachians here and I beleive the south. Where's the southern or hills accents in your dialogue?

4. Who told you this was un believable? I was told that once too but of course mines actually loosely based on a true story, so go figure.

Please dont give up on this. I think it could really be good. You just have to pick and choose critism. And get Rons help.

I MEANT "FIRST PAGE " not first ten. Sorry.

Sorry, I just brought this back up to the top so Yvonne could see which blog I meant so maybe she could use it.

If not, Hey, maybe someone else forgot its here and would like to try.

Ok, Thomas if you really want to get into this discussion what I meant was I beleive there are allot of so called strictly European descendants in the U.S. that are not strictly European(Northern European that is). Southern Europe of course are not strictly caucasian.

I beleive there was allot of mixing with indians, especially in the midwest and allot of mixing with blacks in the south that they dont know about because they kept mixing white and walah... they look all white again.

Just think about it. Can you really trace ALL four of your grandparents straight back to Europe with no mixing with any other race somewhere or a hole somewhere, that you dont know about. I dont think there are too many people that can, I dont care how white they look.

Thats all I meant OK? Racism caused allot of problems in the US and not knowing your true heritage or hiding it (from even your own family) was just one of them. OK?

AND....it just cleaned up at the critics choice awards. Which means it has a really good chance at Globes and Academy doesnt it?

So let me get this straight. This could be the second year in a row that a foreign film takes home best picture, not to mention allot of other awards?

Whats wrong Hollywood USA? Did you forget what a good story is and how to make it into a movie? Of course I thought that a long time ago which is why I started writing.

But good grief Hollywood, come on, that means you have to try more of us new writers and less of the has been, formula ones. Comeon and try us. What have you got to loose that you havent lost already?

Yvonne,

If you dont do like Thomas says then no one will even read your first page. We did because we're trying to help because we've been through it. They don't care about your story if you don't care about abhering to the rules first. I didn't like it when I first heard it either. But its true. Please understand.

Also, I like healer instead of doctor. But I doubt very much that her father would have wanted her to be with a white man (at that time).

If he cared about her he would have been afraid of that (for her).

See? Like Thomas said you have to put your story in the shoes of the times otherwize your audience will walk.

If music is playing while Im writing I would end up dancing more than writing. It wouldn't matter what kind of music it is (I've had training in everything) I would be dancing. I just can't sit still when I hear it.

Yeah, Im one of those "grocery store music dancers as they shop" people. And I don't play music in the car because I embarass my great nieces and nephews as I drive-dance not to mention almost cause a wreck.

And....the intercolm at work is right by my desk so its very hard for me to get my work done ALL DAY. Yes I dance to the bathroom and dance to lunch and take breaks. Its very embarassing.

So, if I really want to concentrate and get something done I definitely dont listen to music.

And....they just cleaned up at the Globe awards. I AM SO HAPPY for this wonderful movie.

Also, it is so encouraging to see that even though Hollywood has forgotten how to make a good movie themselves they certainly have not forgotten how to recognize one on the screen. Now if they could just recognize one on paper again, too.

The key here Hollywood is NEW, FRESH, DIFFERENT and with a HEART and you're not going to find that again if you keep shunning us NEW and UNKNOWN writers.

You don't have to go outside of the country to find ideas like that. You've got plenty of new and different ideas right here in the USA. I see them all over this board, everyday.

But you keep ignorring them because, oh let me see, you dont want to take a chance on new writers that you dont know? Good grief.

Well, ok, keep shipping your awards over seas then, THAT MAKES SENSE.

I think there are allot of places like that in this world, they are called the way the very poor live. We just dont see it that much in movies anymore, with "heart" that is. IE Oliver, Grapes of Wrath, Sounder etc.

There use to be allot of movies about the poor (with heart) but now it seems if we see movies about the poor theres no real heart in it. So they just come off "rounchy". This one didnt.

Even with the extreme images it was still uplifting. I agree though that the first "shockers" set the stage and the characters of the two boys. I didnt think about it before I just knew that I liked the one and the other one was the bad one. Although if you think about it. He had to be, so they could both survive.

Anyway, basically there were so many things about the story that was cliche but they put it together in such a way that everything seemed new and different. It was marvelous.

This was basically just a rags to richs story. With a whole lot in between. Which people in general, adore. If its very real, different and honest that is. And it has a really gorgeous and likable leading lady, which there was.

That is a pretty weak logline compared to the movie isn't it? Well, I was actually prepared for extreme poverty because the title "slumdog" and Ive heard about India slums.

The only problem with that MA is that some people may not want to admit that they entered this contest and didnt make the cut. I know there were a few contests that I entered that allot of movie byters made the cut which I didnt.

So naturally I didnt admit that I entered that contest too. I know a few off hand that entered this contest that didnt make the cut but Im not naming names. Besides, what is it? You think maybe they only had 50 people enter the contest? I highly doubt that. I mean could griedf they state right on thier sight that 1500 did.

Now, naturally they could be exagerating but I dont think they can be very far off with out someone catching it. Anyway, who cares? You're in the top 50 for goodness sakes.

Oh sorry, Congratulations Melissa.

I just read that Danny Boyle is the same director that did "Trainspotting". Also, in some point in his life he was preparing for the ministry. I personally thought Trainspotting was pretty disturbing too. He definitely knows how to paint disturbing pitures.

When I was in junior high, in the late 60's, by the way. I read a book about heroin addiction and extreme poverty in Harlem, mid 50's. It was all about the life of this young addict and all the really horrible things he did for his habit and of course he OD'd and died before he was 16.

Anyway, I was so horrified that I swore I would never do drugs or have anything what so ever to do with drugs, no matter what. And low a behold 40 years later I haven't, NOT EVEN ONCE.

So, I just got to thinking, I wander if thats what Boyle is doing. You know, teaching us. I mean the shock/extreme method sure worked on me so maybe he thinks it will work on all the people in power.

Wouldn't that be wonderful? A little movie like this could help some of the very big social and economic problems we have in the world by shocking us into changing our hateful ways and unscrupulous use of power.

I just wonder if that wasn't exactly what Danny Boyle had in mind.

Thats just it, the powers that be dont want to see real poverty. You think I intentionally read a book about a kid selling his 10 year old little sister for a fix? But when your film takes home all the major awards "the powers that be" have to watch it.

My friend that gave me the book told me it was a really good book and I just had to read it. They draw you in just like Danny does with this movie. Then, wham they shock you with hanging the kid upside down in the first scene and hit him with amps just because they thought he was cheating on a TV show. Then the next scene you see a little kid drop down into an outhouse toilet hole, almost drowning in sh......

These two little boys were thrown into poverty, it wasnt of their own making. Their mother died when they were very young. Theres no way someone can watch this film and not feel something.

Hey, there you go Evie. Post on the board something like "Does anyone have an extra Final Draft 7.1? ".

I think Terry's right. As often as they seem to give them out in almost every contest as prizes, surely theres people trying to sell their extras. You should be able to get one fairly cheap.

Great idea Terry.

Evie,

I think the Yellow Rose of Texas sounds like a fantastic movie. Why don't you write a script about it? You know, no one else will and arn't you from Texas? I mean surely you know Texas history better than the rest of us which will help with this part.

Please write it.

Also, you don't happen to know if theres any way I could get my hands on the (Halle Berry and Jimmy Smits) version of (Soloman and Sheba)do you?

I mean I never saw it when it came out, what 10 years ago? But several friends told me it was really good. Ive been looking for the DVD and cant find one ANYWHERE. So do you have any ideas?

Which brings us back up to the top of your thread where you said some coverage reader said that your story about a black and white romance right after the civil war in the south was unbelievable.

It is very true that blacks were treated very well, almost like whites them selves right after the civil war (in the south)and before the Jim Crow laws.

So once again I ask you. Who said that your story is unbelievable?

Some of you? What are you talking about? It looks like ALL OF YOU made it to the semifinals. Goodgrief, what was I thinking entering this one. You guys are awesome.

Goodluck again, Patrick, Stephen, Robert, Terry, Michael and any other moviebyters I missed.

Bring home the gold!

Congrats. Irin, Geoff and Patrick. Goodluck to all of you.

I religously read recent sales on "Who's buying what" and everyday there are at least 3-5 scripts sold. Of course scripts sold by first timers is only 1 a month, at the most.

This is just not right. The loglines from the first time writers sound so....much better than the others. The ideas are so much better and different and interesting. It seems like new scripts from new writers are much more likely to be really sucessful. I just dont understand why its so hard for new writers. It must be fear.

One of the things that I heard from Obamas speech today was dont be afraid to stick with what you really beleive in. Follow your dream and you will succeed. Don't compromise if its not right.

What ever it was that made you start writing please dont give it up. Sucess is not for the fainthearted.

First, of all my script would not take 100 mil to produce. Its a rom-com dance musical for goodness sakes. 30 mil at the very most. But I personally think it could be done for as little as 5 mil. It just wouldnt be as good.

Second, Hollywood is spending PLENTY of money right now. And theyre not getting the return (for what they put into them) that they should or could be. THATS because they are using tired themes, tired ideas, remakes, sequels and remakes.

As far as I can tell they are spending ALLOT of money VERY STUPIDLY right now. And you think thats better than trying an unknown? And by the way, I may not be known in Hollywood but I would stack up my knowledge of what Im writing about with anybody. I know my subject (dancing, Iowa, farmers, ranchers, interacial romance, religion, country and R&B music in the 90's,).

I have more experience and training in dance and different dance styles than anyone I know. Mix that with my knowledge of rural AND urban America I think, I have something very special to offer. Entertainment wise.

Like you said at the beginning, the kind of movies that sell NOW more than ever are rom-com escape movies and THATS exactly what mine is.

So, if they want to go with the same old tired ideas (just because thats what they know and trust) and you think THATS good buisness, then I say thats not only cowardess, its stupid.

One more thing, Hollywood has been just as guilty , if not more so, as any other big buisness in the past 20 years of bad money management. So Oh, let me see , what has been their BIGGEST trend in Movie script purchasing in the past 20 years?

ONCE AGAIN, remakes, sequels and remakes by (has been) writers. REAL GOOD BUISNESS MANAGEMENT there Ron...NOT!

Show me the movie producers, actors or productions companies that are REALLY making ALLOT of money and winning allot of awards and Ill show you the RISK takers and the ones that are definitely NOT AFFRAID to try NEW (UNKNOWN) writers.

OK, Ok, Ron....your last part makes sense. I wonder what Jim Careys doing these days and how I get to him. Just kidding, he would definitely not be right for my script. But I see what you mean. thank you

You know Evie,

That sounds like a really strange policy for agents to have for black actresses. I mean for goodnesses sakes THEY have the hardest time of all groups getting roles to play.

I would think a good agent for them would be one that looks at and reads anything and everything no matter what. They may just find something wonderful, they cant go by wether your an unknown or not, not with black actresses I think.

I think Angela should get a new agent. Thats what I think.

Evie,

Thats exactly my point. Sistah's need more rolls so why in the ----- are their agents turning writers away? It kinda makes me angry because I know several of us out here writing so why not give us a break?

Even if technically your script is not good. Any established writer could fix THAT. But to come up with real and original ideas for black actresses is what is most needed. AND THEIR AGENTS TURN US AWAY? What's with THAT?

Wait a minute. I dont need the inspiration , Ron was the one that was so down about everything. I was the one that was trying to be optomistic. He was the pessimist.

Evie was the one that was saying you cant go to an actor because they wont talk to you. Which was when I made my point about black actresss should talk to ALL writers, new and old.

And by the way Thomas I was not trying to say working on the technical side of writing was not important, I work on that part all the time. But Evie said her reader said she was a horrible writer so I was just saying theres more to writing than technical skill.

All of you have an incredible way of turning things around and missing the point. Im trying to inspire new writers not discourage them like all of you seem to be doing. Im extremely idealistic. Remember, Im the one that said I truelly believe that if your script is good eventually, somehow some way it will sell.

Like I said.....

Actually the PROMISE of sex in movies, is much more powerful and will always sell. There are allot of movies that are extremely sensual without any nudity or any graphic sex scenes at all. So I never understood the need for our right nudity and sex in movies. I have a pretty good imagination so I dont need to see the whole thing.

To me THAT is not as alluring as scenes like Patrick and Demi spinning the pottery pot in Ghost, Jennifer sucking lobster in front of Nick in Flashdance, Megan and Col's kiss in stomp the yard, Bo Derek in cornrows and slow-mo running across the beach in "10", Jennifer and Cynthia in leotards and heels dancing with Patrick in Dirty dancing.

OK thats enough, see my point though? It just seems to me teasing us is much more effective and if we keep putting it all out there, like all the cleavage we see (constantly) these days, it will loose its mystic and appeal. Dont you think?

Congrats Gene and Paul. Good luck and show us the way.

Way to go Patrick. And everyone else, good luck.

Hey Murph,

Since you seem to know 40s baseball so well you don't happen to know the name the Kansas team had then do you? I know it isn't the same as now but I can never remember the name.

My dad, before he went to War, pitched for them for a year. They told him he was throwing the ball wrong (he was just off the farm) and he'd end up throwing his arm out so they let him go. He died many years ago so I can't ask him.

Anyway, I thought maybe you knew.

Also, goodluck to you too!

Sorry, it was Kansas city or maybe St Louis, not Kansas. Oh, I hate my memory these days. It had to be Kansas city or St Louis. Sorry.

Sorry Murph, It was the Browns, mid 30's. Their no longer there are they? I thought it was later but I asked my mother, it was before she met him in 39 so it had to be 37-39.

He graduated from highschool in 37 I believe. He was held back for working on the farm for 2 years so he was 20 when he graduated.

My father was not recognizably any other race but white.

I adore Inktip. I especially like the news letter they send out every week and give you an active way of submitting to leads that you feel your script fits.

Im just a little preturbed (spelling) with some of the "sucesses" they advertised right now. A producer just hired some one to write a dance musical feature for them. They hired some one thats been in the buisness for 20 years but Ive never seen her write a "dance musical" before.

I mean OK she has a (writing , producing and directing) reputation but good grief its not with "dance musicals".

And oh let me see, they gave her a synopsis and the stars that they want in it and she wrote it up in 2 week?

Good grief, Ive been working on my "dance musical" for 3 years, I have 40 years of dance experience and they didnt even ask to read any part of mine?

Just a little irritated right now. Sorry. But dont get me wrong, I think Inktip's the best.

Anyway, I think Inktip is very, very good for those that have had some credentials of some kind. But I very seldom see in their newsletter any hires for BRAND NEW writers with no credits at all.

Of course, if you look on this site for Sales by a NEW writer as compared to ALL of the writer sales in general its pretty pitiful too.

So basically, ITS REALLY HARD FOR NEW WRITERS! No matter what. I think new writers have to:

1. Enter contests (so they at least have some kind of cred for their script, if they place that is).

2. Get lots of different coverage. So your script(s) is as good as it can possibly be so you can WIN some contests too, eventually.

3. Be creative. Get to your targets some how. Producers, directors, actors. Most on the board would say networking but of course thats really hard too.

Anyway, I think for new unknown writers those are the Big 3 things you must do and I think most on the board will agree with me. Basically, being on this board is networking. So anyway, good luck.

Sorry, Alexander I strayed a little. Just listen to Ordanda.

Nichols, Page and Austin. But, theres other reasons to enter contests besides "winning the big one". I mean I write dance musicals so I really dont foresee any wins in the BIG contests at all at any time. It just is not possible.

But, I try to enter as many as possible to see how I compare to other writers, hopefully get a placing once in a while to boost up my resume and get more coverage to make my script better and better.

It all depends on what your goals are.

Yes, but you may want to hint at it before page 40 and theres ways of doing that without giving it totally way too. Like how you describe her (without the obvious swollen adomen(spelling) description that is.

Or starts crying uncontrollably "out of the blue" and her boobs get tender.

Upchucks? Evie come on.

Im with Irin though. Sounds a little creepy. Of course creepy seems to be really selling these days.

OK, NOW WHAT, RON?

I mean, I did what you told me to and tried to contact the people I want in my script. One is reading it now. But what if HE/SHE says ok attach me to it. Then what? What exactly does that mean?

I know this is probably a stupid question but I really dont know how to use it. Then I just start advetising that I have HIM/HER attached? Or do I use him/her to try and get the other ones? Or do I use him/her to help me find producers?

See, sorry but Im lost. Besides dancing and my own script I dont know how all of this Hollywood stuff works. Im just trying to get my script sold.

I havent heard back from him-her yet so chances are I dont have to worry about any "attachments" yet.

But of course I will let everyone know if I have any sucess with it and.... Im sure Ill have more questions.

Thank you so much, everyone, for your help.

Congrats. L bros. Good luck in the next round.

I adore Inktip. It helps allot to know who is looking at loglines, scripts or synopsis. I mean, as far was we know, here on Moviebytes the only people that are looking at our "stuff" is other moviebyters or just drifters.

Anyway, I know this probably isn't the place to ask this but I haven't been able to load my script or excerpt on them in while. Has anyone else had that problem?

I thought it was 3 or less but I think if I go back and get rid of any is, ares and "ands" maybe it will cut it down to 2 or less. Thanks for the tip Jean.

Orlanda,

I hit browse and select my script. Then I hit save changes and after it processes it comes back with a page that says "Script failed to upload".

I don't know, maybe Ive done it too many times and my scripts are jammed or something.

Congrats MURPH on your honorable mention for "KNUCKLEBALLER".

I just knew I didn't stand a chance against you. But hey, maybe next time.

Way to go. You deserve it.

Congrats Irin.

Slumdog Millionaire of course. It's won every other award. I just hope Hollywood learns from this and gets back to making movies like they use to.

Slumdog is basically an old fashioned love story with allot of heart. Its also VERY DIFFERENT. Hollywood itself just hasnt been DOING THAT anymore.

They seem to be carried away with remakes, sequeals, safe money makers instead of taking risks and branching out like Slumdog did.

I just hope they learn from this.

I received an email tuesday that I was a finalist and asked if I was going to be there. But I still dont see my name on their finalist list.

Anyway, I was so shocked I was afraid to answer because of course, I cant make it to LA from Iowa on such short notice. I work and I don't fly.

But then it hit me . Hey maybe, if I just happen to be a top finalist that I could send over some COUNTRY BALLROOM DANCERS to perform for their festival instead of me flying in. Im sure the guests would like that allot better.

I offered it to them but I havent heard back. So I guess maybe it was a bad idea or... Im no where near the top so it doesnt apply.

Anyway, CONGRATS you guys. And good luck, but not too much.

Patrick, thanks for thinking of me. Ill definitely check it out.

Although, I dont think a different kind of dance musicals should be "un touchable" these days. I mean good grief Dance musicals, along with action films, romantic comedys and feel good movies seem to be the MOST sucessful right now.

Bad economy and war you know makes THOSE kind of movies the most popular. And...DIFFERENT use to be a good thing in Hollywood didnt it? So I just don't get it. But hey, I wrote it because it was different. So be it.

Although, I dont think a different kind of dance musicals should be "un touchable" these days. I mean good grief Dance musicals, along with action films, romantic comedys and feel good movies seem to be the MOST sucessful right now.

Bad economy and war you know makes THOSE kind of movies the most popular. And...DIFFERENT use to be a good thing in Hollywood didnt it? So I just don't get it. But hey, I wrote it because it was different. So be it.

For the Acclaim Feature Runner-up. I just have one question. What other contests did you enter? I'll stay away.

Just kidding. You're truly an inspiration. Thank you.

Cat,

No, just like you don't have to be gay or black to write about them either. What you have to have is a deep compassion and understanding for their plight that came from somewhere.

We don't know anything about the writers except that they did not come from poverty, right? But they were all British right? And oh let me see, the British have been in India for I don't know a couple hundered years.

You don't really know what these writers backrounds are. And judging by the extremely realistic type story they wrote I would say they all have an affiliation of somekind to the India slums that we simply dont know about.

And THAT works too.

My point before was that there has to be SOMETHING that connects you with what you are writing about besides just a desire to write about it. Somehow, you have to have a compassion and understanding of it, FOR SOME REASON.

I mean sure you can research something and probably come up with a fairly accurate story. But to come up with the realistic feel like Slumdog did there was something in these writers lives that gave them all that insight. Im positive of it.

Sorry Sarah, but the musical numbers, staging and choreography for the show was pretty weak by todays standards of singing and dancing. Of course it always helps to use Beyonce. But she can't carry EVERYBODY.

AS A MATTER OF FACT. One of the biggest reason I watched the show last night was to see Beyonce perform.

I mean I heard that they were going to do a big production number with her in it but, silly me. I thought it was going to be something along the lines of (50 female dancers in black leotards instead of 3) performing her BIG HIT VIDEO "Put a ring on it".

I adore that video which is by the way an updated version of Guen Verdon's "single Lady " performance back in the 60's on the Ed Sullivan show. So the Nostalgia aspect is already there and her own choreographer (who is phenomenal) could have staged it with 50 females instead of 3, easily.

And all on a staircase. With tremendous singing and dancing. Instead of oh let me see, something along the lines of something I choreographed for a bunch of NON dancers in our highschool musical back in 1974. But AT LEAST MINE COULD SING.

Poor Beyonce, she did not look happy at all when she hurried off the stage after THAT number. Serious singers-dancers are like that when they are forced to do something far beneath their talents. I dont blame her. I dont see why they had to give up good singing and dancing for , Oh let me see, what did you say, classy? right!

Needless to say I was very disappointed with the entertainment, selection, choreography, dancing and singing (except for Beyonce of course). Hugh Jachman may be classy but he and the Mamma Mia group have no buisness singing solos. Heck I can sing better than them and I would never dream of singing solo let alone on the Academy Awards.

Please don't give up quality of singing and dancing for what???? Let me see, what would be the reason not to have real singers and dancers on the show or in musicals like Mamma Mia and whatever that Laz movie was that was full of non talents also.

Who cares! Im finally legitimate. I'm so happy. It's just not right being an orphan.

Oh yeah, I forgot, I was so excited. Good luck L- boys, Connie, Irin, Peter and anyone I missed. Even if it is really all over already and you all probably know the results, Good luck anyway, just in case you don't.

No, Gene's funny. Nightmarish horde indeed. I think I will purposely enter the same contests they do from now on.

AND YOU KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS!

O.K. Murph, Exactly what online classes did you take? I mean, its been a long time since I was in college and besides insurance classes I haven't taken anything since.

So, if Im going to take classes AGAIN, I want to know exactly which ones will help me the most. Im getting alittle tired of the finalist rounds and would like to somehow, EVENTUALLY jump up.

Thanks, Janet

See Gene, I think Connie thinks its a good idea to send Country Ballroom Dancers to a festival. I mean good grief how else is anyone going to find out what Im talking about in my script if I dont show them?

I think most readers are lost when I start describing the dance routines in my script. So I just thought heck, since my script is first and foremost a dance musical, why not give them a preview?

I mean, most professional ballroom and country western dancers know all of the dances that I describe in my script. I just have to tell them what song, what dance and how to present it that makes the difference.

So I dont think it would be that difficult to find some in any BIG city to perform for a festival. I just have to have enough notice to do it. But hey, maybe Im wrong and nobody but me thinks its a good idea, so you probably dont have to worry.

It's not about clarity Eric. It's that most readers don't know the first thing about dancing. If dancers were my readers I wouldn't have a problem. But they're not. I cant possibly describe the dances or steps (so that they know its not the same old thing) without using some technical dance terms. Which is what I mean by, some of them getting lost.

And by the way, its not Country WESTERN Ballroom dancing. Its Country Ballroom. See, you don't know what your'e talking about. And I think the millions that watch shows like DANCING WITH THE STARS and SO YOU THINK YOU CAN DANCE (which is pretty much ALL ballroom dancing) might disagree with your needles in the eyes theory.

But thanks for sharing.

Oh, and not to change the subject but I think this contest is just wonderful. I was just one on the very long finalist list and I just received an award certificate in the mail.

See, its little things like THAT that really set certain contests apart from the others.

Way to go Cinema City. You're the best.

Eric, How do you know you would take needles in your eyes when you havent ever seen a COUNTRY BALLROOM dance number before? IT was actually something I made up.

And...I have watched every single episode of both of those shows and I have never seen one on either show.....EVER. So I don't think you really have any idea what it is.

AND what it ISNT is Hollywoods idea of country western dancing. But also country western is very different than Country ballroom. I was never so horrified in my life when I saw Dancing with the stars interpretation of country western dance.

I mean possibly thats the way country western dancers in California dance but it certainly is not the way we COUNTRY dance.

Basically, COUNTRY BALLROOM is all the ballroom dances you see on THOSE shows. Waltz, cha cha, swing, tango, foxtrot, hustle, jive, rhumba, salsa mixed with.....all the different variations of 2-step which by the way there are several.

But its also a style difference. Instead of all the posing , which professional ballroom dancing does, ALLOT, its more fluid.

NOW, as far as my comment about not being a screenwriter. I think that I have worked really hard to try to write to the caliber of "a real screenwiter". What I meant by THAT comment was that people who write REAL DANCE musicals are not concidered REAL screen writers so IM at a disadvantage. Name me one Dance musical that has ever won one of these contests.

Now maybe thats because, like you, they dont think that much of dancing or.... maybe its because like I said before they have no idea what theyre reading so they automatically mark it down.

My script has 16 dance routines in it. Thats a dance routine every 5-6 pages. I hardly call THAT a PROP. ANYWAY, I hear what both of you are saying. You dont like dancing and you dont like dance musicals. And maybes thats how MOST screenwriters feel and MOST coverage readers and contest judges.

However, it seems to me that maybe you and they should learn how to like them and understand some music and dance terminology. Because it seems to me they are VERY POPULAR RIGHT NOW. HMMM who did better at the box office? MAMMA MIA and HIGHSCHOOL MUSICAL OR the READER and BENJAMIN BUTTON.

Props indeed. Dance haters!

OK, OK before you set me straight. Benjamin Button did do as well as Highschool musical. They both made around 250M world wide.

But good grief Benjamin spent 150M to do it and High School Musical only spent WHAT? 33M!

I would say its pretty safe to say High school Musical 3 (a stupid little musical with allot of dance routines in it) did much much better.

And let me see the other two. Mamma Mia made 500m world wide and the Reader did what? 30m? And oh let me see MM only put 50m into theres and Reader put in 30m.

YEP. Definitely Mamma Mia (another studid little musical with allot of dance routines in it) hands down!

Thomas, there is a little singing in my dance musical which the leading lady performs. And since the leading lady should be someone like Alicia Keyes, Rhianna, Cassie or Sierra (who are all Singers and....dancers) it should be fine.

Eric, so its not dance musicals that you hate but bad ones, which you assume mine is because it has country ballroom dance in it . Which obviously you assume is country western. I think maybe Im starting to understand the reason for your dislike.

Could it be the dancers and not the dancing itself that you have a problem with? Say cowboys? Hah! If you read my script you'd see that there is contemporary ballet in almost every routine. I don't know any redneck cowboys that could do that, do you?

No, my dancers would definitely have to be ballroom AND contemparary ballet dancers decked in stetsons not vice versa. As a matter of fact, I named several of my cowboy characters in my script after (well known) Male contemparary ballet dancers that I had in mind for the parts. If DANCERS read my script they would know that.

My point is Eric you are PRE-judging something you shouldn't.

Just one more thing.

Thomas, How about Step up 1 and 2 and Hairspray? They both did really well and they were pretty much exclusively dancing. I mean OK Hairspray had some singing but its about the same mix mine is.

And oh let me see. They are working on sequels for both of those, too.

I think (right now) singing and dancing musicals are both doing really well so it doesnt really matter which. I think you're right though the key for me too is wether or not the singing and dancing is good. Which by the way Im still apalled by the singing in Mamma Mia. They just happen to have ABBA to pull them.

I think there are probably allot of different factors that go into wether or not a musical works or not. And it seems to me the ones that are working right now are ones that somewhat different from the same old Urban Rap music and break dance/hip hop that we have seen (over and over) for the past 30 years.

So Im pretty safe on THAT front.

Orlanda, I am working on that and I am chilled. I think you need to go back and read Erics post not mine. He's the one that's pre-judging and attacking, not me. He called dancers PROPS and let me see.....

And....the only point I can see that he's trying to make is that HE doesn't want to see any demonstrations at any festivals of Country Ballroom Dancing because he is SURE it is something he wouldn't like. I got it.

Eric,

Ok let me get this straight. I made a suggestion about something and out of the blue you come in and attack my idea, attack dancers, attack me as a writer.

AND IM THE BULLY DOMINATING THE BOARDS?

Ok, so I talk allot. Personally, since according to Orlanda dancers can't even read, I thought that was kind of a plus.

But...I think you are mistaking debating and questioning for accusing and assuming. I don't recall ever saying that Jean didn't give blacks a fair shake in her script or that there was something racist about it.

If I recall correctly I was simply questioning something in her logline. As a matter of fact I believe that there should be racism in a black and white romance script. That the way it is, its real.

Although, once again I will apologize to Jean if I insulted your script in any way, I am sorry. That truly was not my intension I was simply curious. Im sorry.

Now Eric, resorting to personal attacks is really pathetic. You should really learn how to argue better. Oh let me see that might come in handy pitching your script.

Congrats Ron, good luck.

Congrats Irin, for both scripts. Good luck.

OK FINE! But what if someone asks me to to have some COUNTRY BALLROOM DANCERS perform at their festival? According to you guys Im suppose to say, NO? Yeah right!

Congrats, Geoff. Good luck.

OK FINE! But what if someone asks me to to have some COUNTRY BALLROOM DANCERS perform at their festival?

Oh! Orlanda it's wonderful, I just love it. I've never really seen any like you know, personal websites before. And you can do it any way you like? I am so impressed.

Ok so how do you do THAT?

I don't think you can compare "success wize" movies like (Slumdog and Madea goes to Jail) with (Watchmen and Taken). I mean Slumdog's budget was only 15M and it took 250M worldwide. Of course, most of THAT had to do with awards. It really wasnt doing THAT well at first because no one knew about it.

And Madea's budget was only 41m and it took home 78m so far. ACTION movies are SUPPOSE to make at least 100M because thats what most of them take to make. As did Watchmen. But the thing is, wether it reaches its double mark or not does not necessarily mean it was a good or bad version or movie for that matter, as far as Im concerned.

There are several movies to this day that I think were "the best" that neither did well at the box office or won any awards (Hunt for Red October) to name one. So, doing well at the box office simply means that it is POPULAR not necessarily the best in its genre. By the way, I ADORED "Taken" but it was probably because of the possible reality and HEART of it. Just like "Slumdog".

And...it kept me on the edge of my seat for almost the entire 90 minutes. I would say if "Watchmen" does THAT (for an Action movie) then its pretty good! When the "Terminator" came out and I first saw it thats what happened also and look what happen to IT.

I just thought now was a good time to plug the concept of using different coverage readers and not depending on any one reader to Fix your script.

Ive used three different ones, Script Mentors, Script Savvy and Barb D. and they were all different and ALL extremely helpful. All of them gave extremely clear notes, problems with the script and very clear instructions on how to solve the problems.

They were all very good about telling me Hollywood do's and don'ts, making the script easy to read, plot, characters and originality. But they were different from each other also.

Scriptmentors seems to concentrate on the overall picture and originality of my script. ScriptSavy concentrated on the technical issues and Barb, the commercial side of it. So see, all three were extremely helpful to me in different ways.

And remember, you're just paying for coverage. If you don't pay for anything, you're just entering a contest, I don't really think you can expect a whole lot in the way of coverage. And...if you're just paying for coverage you can't expect DEEP analysis.

Anyway, I just think these three are all very good and you should jump around if you're really serious about making your script better. Because they are all different and so far, very good, in their own way.

Just one more thing. I think it's only Human Nature to avoid hearing bad things about yourself, which in our case is our script. Which is probably why my favorite is Scriptmentors, who gave me high scores because duh... they concentrate on what I think is the strength of my script....Originality.

Where as, at first I was not as crazy about the other two because they harped on my weaknesss (technical and commerciality). But the thing is, ALL of these areas are important to a good script. So like it or not you must face your demons to make your script better.

I remember putting a coverage report down for a week before reading it because I knew it was bad. However, that particular report made the biggest and best changes to my script. So, bite the bullet and go to the coverage reader that will strengthen your weaknesss not support your strengths.

Now all of that being said I do think there are probably some lazy readers and some biased ones. Just like in any other profession. But you can still get what you can use and go on to the next one.

Script Shark? Ok, let me clarify something. I have a theory on why there are some many contests winners and really good writers on this site that havent been sold and I think coverage readers like Script Shark are part of the problem.

It seems that most contest and most coverage readers like Script Shark FOCUS on the very technical side of writing and not the originality side. So as a result the very good technical writers, who have survived places like "Script Shark" win all of the contests.

However, when it comes to Hollywood producers and agents buying scripts thier main focus is "originality" which places like Script Shark has already scared off THOSE writers.

I mean of course the technically good writers should win contest etc but.... that doesnt necessarily mean they have original and new and different stories and that is what Hollywood is sorely in need of. NOT more technically perfect writers. I mean I think writers with original ideas are getting pushed out but coverage readers and contests so Producers and Agents cant find them.

I think what the contest and coverage readers SHOULD be doing, is pairing up technically good writers with not so good writers with original ideas so they BOTH can GET SOLD. Instead of beating EVERYBODY UP.

On second thought, THAT would probably not be something readers and contests would want to do because that reduces how much money THEY make.

So, I would say its up to the very good writers, technically, that keep winning all of these contests to determine, why they are not getting sold. If the answer is because thier story isn't really THAT original then they should bite the bullet and look for a partner. Starting with scripts on this SITE that they think they can work with.

Ive seen a lot of scripts on this site that haven't won any contests that their loglines actually sound kind of different. Ask THOSE people, instead of other TECHNICALLY great writers, to read their script. If it looks like something you could fix. Then just ask them if they would like to collaborate. What have you got to loose besides "NOT GETTING YOUR SCRIPT SOLD"?

Its just a suggestion.

I think there are some writers on this board that make the mistake of thinking that just because some of us have not been "screenwriters" all of our lives that we are idiots.

I don't know how long David's been an attorney but I do know that some of thier daily tasks including writing and arguing. Not to mention the fact that they should have a whole range of knowledge.

I looked at David's profile on the first post I saw of his and decided at that point I would never get into an arguement with him. There are a few other attorneys turned writers on this board that I would never argue with either, in case you havent noticed. Because mostly, I'll argue with anyone. My profession does allot of THAT too.

Writing and arguing is their job and they have to be really good at it. So, good luck Gordy.

Cheryl, Probably the cheapest route is the contests that offer coverage on top of entering the contests and I think Script Savy was the most reasonable with the best coverage for what you paid for.

I don't really know quality wise on the the other contests because I havent done it on any others but I plan to because it seems to me, so far all of them give you something you can use. I know there are some people on the board that have a problem with some of the contests but I just havent really experienced any that didnt give me SOMETHING I could use.

I adore ScriptMentors (strictly coverage, no contests)and they charge 70-125 for basic coverage.

By the way, LOVE your titles and loglines. They're wonderful.

Come on you guys. I really wanted to enter this contest and the final dead line April 1st. But because of all this chatter Im afraid to now.

Is there something wrong with the judging or not?

I agree Paula. And thank you for the thought. Actually, I just wanted to do this one because of the cool name. Just kidding. But heck if there's nothing bad or any worse, about the judging, Whats the big deal?

I know, I know, the feedback entices some writers. Well, I think if you want extensive coverage you have to pay for it.

OMG Patrick that was so ...funny. How do you do that?

To be honest, Paula's criitique from Blue cat is much more extensive than any I have ever received, from actual coverage readers.

Im pretty disorganized, so I prefer the numbered listing and pointing out of each error problem etc and how to change it.

But good grief, there doesn't look like anything brief or careless about this review to me.

And I still like the name. So Im going to enter. Its not like I haven't entered a totally un-winnable contest for me before. Unless, someone tells me its fixed, before next Weds , that is.

Troy, thank you so much for the help. Its wonderful. But I have a question.

My script starts out with several different short scenes of different people all getting ready for a wedding. All in about the same time frame.

THAT'S not really something that should be done as a "Montage" is it?

Ok, thank you Thomas.

Thank you Troy. Like I said, this really helps me. I didn't really think of it for the first part of my script, until I saw your post.

I mean, the first part has been bothering me but I wasn't sure why. You see, there are a couple of the "short scenes" in this montage that has one or two lines of dialogue in it so I always thought that was a "no no" for a montage. Plus, I thought it just confuses the reader, if its not necessary.

But actually, now that I started working on it, I think, it makes it clearer to the reader whats going on. I mean, Im sure they realize, eventually, that its simply a series of "getting ready for the wedding " scenes but "I think" this makes them figure it out allot faster so they don't have to waste time. So, thank you, again.

And those three examples are perfect.So far, I love that Scripttoolbox site.

Wow, 1st and 2nd place. Way to go Peter and Geoff.

Ok, great , then it should work. Thank you again. Troy and Thomas.

I'm sorry Jonathan, but the first thing I thought of when I saw your logline was Disney's big hit "Homeward Bound".

Which is OK, but maybe what you want to do is come up with a logline that sounds NOTHING like that movie.

I mean, I think if THEY see something that sounds very similar to something that ALREADY was a big hit it turns them off. UNLESS of course you make yours sound different from that one. Then the similarity is a good thing.

It's done all the time so don't worry. But Im just saying you want to be aware that if I thought of THAT movie when I saw your logline then chances are Hollywood people DEFINITELY THINK OF IT. So try to change it (a little).

Evie,

You might try GAFFERS screenwriting competion. I think the deadline is mid April. Check their web sight. I think they offer coverage and a contest. the contest is only $30.00.

And... I truly think one of their priorities is racial diversity. Which isn't necesarily any one elses.

Evie,

I'm pretty sure there are black readers at GAFFERS.

Evie,

Possibly the issue of what "shade of black" came about for the same reason Thomas and I was cornering you on it before. In the time period you are talking about any one from 1/2 to full black was discriminated against and if you don't have ANY blatant racism in your script it feels unreal.

So, its not to say that she was suggesting that Jewell is trying to pass for white. And just for everyone else's benifit I would like to clarify something:

When two parents (one full black and one full white) have a child,that child is one half black and 1/2 white and its obvious. Everyone can tell that THAT child is part black. IE: Halle Berry.

But, if one parent is all white and one parent is 1/2 black and 1/2 white then the child is 1/4 black. IE: Nicole Richie, Vin Diesel and Kisandra Jones. Which usually, it isnt as obvious and they could be mistaken for another race. IE: Mexican or Iranian.

But just because it is not Obvious that a person is part black doesnt mean they are trying to HIDE IT.

Actually, I think its more common that 1/4 or 1/8 blacks try very hard to make sure everyone knows they are part black because everyone else always accuses them of trying to hide it.

Sorry, but I think no matter how he does it, as long as its a fighting cat and dog trying to find their way back home its always going to be HOMEWARD BOUND, HOMEWARD BOUND , HOMEWARD BOUND.

I think he has to change the cat and dog to say a guinea pig and rabbit and instead of loosing their way home they start in a pet store and get sold together.

But...then they have some kind of mishap on the way to their new owners and have to find their way back to the pet store and Cindy lou who loves them both so...much.

Evie,

Your script has a black leading lady and a white leading man. I personally think it will help you grow to have black reviewers and contests on your script, ALSO, if its possible.

It would be really nice if there was no difference between how black readers see a (black/white) romance script and how white readers see a (black/white) romance script but allot of times, there is and....you get a different kind of input from both sides.

So THAT IS growth. I agree that you can't totally base your choice of reviewers on THAT. But nothings wrong with wanting BOTH oppinions (if possible) when you have BOTH in your script.

But as I have said before the more coverage and different focuses that you can get the better and when you have a black/white romance script, THAT includes black reviewers. Its just that there are not a whole lot of them out there.

Evie,

And...you may want to be a little suspicious of "really experienced writers" who have actually never sold anything, too. There could be a perfectly good reason for that.

Oh Jonathon, I really like the spaceship jettisoned idea. Just think about it, they could monkeys , you know like we use to send up into space. Then you could have all the issues of not only getting back to earth but wether or not they should go back to the Space Center or the Zoo or their real home , the jungle. I love it. And.....all of your other character issues could still be there, it just has a TOTALLY DIFFERNT LOOK. See?

Hmmmm, well that certainly explains allot, doesn't it Evie? Careful Er....ic your "NOT getting over it attitude" is really showing.

And by the way, everyone else. Go back and look at Evies first comment that started this whole insane fight. There really was no accusation of racism in it.

THAT was Eric's spin and of course She defended her self. And oh let me see, he does it to me all of the time. I cant say a word on this board with out him jumping my bones and twisting it around.

So obviously Er....ic you are NOT getting over YOUR problem because you are obviously taking it out on us.

and....I dont see either one of us not getting along with any one on this board except YOU. And thats because you keep (out of the blue) attacking us and gaining allies by twisting around what we say.

So I would personally apreciate you "chilling out" too.

Like I said.

Thanks again Troy.

I mean I pretty much knew about the other rules on parenthesis, which I learned the hard way by the way(coverage readers). But I still never really understood the (beat) thing and how to use it properly. Your article is so clear, to the point and easy to understand.

Again, you have a marvelous site.

Please keep telling us about these different articles. They are improving my script so much. Thank you.

Hah, Hah. Ron. And I too received a letter that Im in the the quarter-final round of the 13th Annual Fade In Awards contests. It was dated April 1.

It looks like we are all getting our notifications by mail now. Probably because of the bad publicity. But hey, lets do it anyway.

Congratulations Ron, Oh thank you, Congrats. Janet.

Anyway else out there received the Snails mail Quarter-finalist notice? Congrats, if there are.

Sorry, I haven't and I've never received a notice by mail. I just thought maybe it had to do with all the bad press. But obviously it doesnt.

For everyone else, they say in the letter they will put up the Quarter-finalist list on their website after April 30.

Wow, you are just hitting everything. Way to go Murph. Obviously, your advise works. Congrats.

With Unity, 3rd place, congrats. Gene and Paul. Moviebyters rock.

Thanks Terry. I guess they must have meant the semi final list wont be posted until after April 30th.

Anyway, I see Patrick and Eric on the list too, congrats guys. I looked at it real fast because Im on my way to work. Sorry, if I missed anyone.

Actually, if the stats are true it looks to me like there is simply a disconnect between what Hollywood is looking for right now and what "contest, agents, etc" are giving them.

Right now, in war and economically bad times, it is a known fact that films do really well, as long as they are light, fantasy, funny etc. Like comedys, action films and oh let me see, musicals.

So, obviously THAT is what Hollywood is looking for. But that is NOT what these contests and agents promote. So there is a disconnect between how many scripts are presented to them from new writers and how many they actually make.

Doesn't that sound right?

Not to worry Patrick. If your script is any thing like how you write on this board, I predict YOU, out of all of us, will definitely not be disconnected much longer in these troubled times.

And that also goes for Gene L., Paula, Ron and that guy I always want to call Winston.

Im sorry I know thats not your name but for some reason I always want to call you that.

Well, of course Jean that goes without saying. I just meant you witty people have more of chance than you think you do, right now too.

You're my musical buddy Thomas, of course YOU TOO. Comedys, action, fantasy's, thrillers (as long as they are not depressing) and musicals. I think thats what Ron said was selling.

Im curious to know what the percentage of the above genre scripts were part of the entire 170 introduced to the studios.

If Im right. Not very many as compared to quirky dramas, etc. And Im curious to know how many comedys, musicals, action or thriller scripts win any of these contests. Again, probably not very many which would also proove my point.

I have a feeling also that part of the problem is that Hollywood thinks that ANYBODY can write a comedy, action film or musical which is why they just stick with their own writers instead of trying new ones.

But, that really isnt TRUE. I mean ok maybe we don't have the experience but we definitely bring something else. Originality. So hang in there my off- genre buddies. Our day is coming.

No, Im saying I think (Contests) should start finding and giving Hollywood MORE (comedys, action, and musicals).

I think if Hollywood was being presented with more of what they REALLY want (from the new writer pool) it wouldnt in fact just filter down to 13%. It would be more like 30-40%.

Thank you, Thomas.

REALLY?

Highschool Musical I,II,III & IV Honah Montana (the concert) and (the movie) Step up I,II & III D Hairspray (the remake) & II Mamma Mia Fame II(releasing this month)

All of these musicals and their sequeals released in just the past 3 years and as I understand it they ALL did extremely well and caused the following remakes. Just to name a few

Carasol Footloose Bye Bye Birdie Damn Yankees

Now, IF Musicals arn't (IN) right now then they most certainly should be with all of the sucess they're having in these hard times. I believe that was just the point I was trying to make. I just think MAYBE(contests) and (new writers) are missing a golden oppor tunity here.

Irin, I have the very same problem that all the rest of you do. I dont know anyone in Hollywood so none of those people on my list would ever listen to me unless I get some cred. IE: from a contest. Which Im trying to do but I think its very difficult for musicals or dance musicals. More so than any other genre.

For example, I dont think any of THOSE musicals would have EVER WON any script contests either. Even Mamma Mia, which I do think was geered towards an older crowd.

Mamma Mia by the way, was originally taken from a B-movie romantic-comedy from the 60's starring Gina Lollabridgada. It was not a musical. But someone simply set the story to Abba music and wolla...its a big hit musical.

There was no big singer or dancer theme just a cute romantic comedy set to music. Granted, with a singing group that every one loves but still it was simply all adaptation. Brilliant adaptation.

But I understand your position. You think what Im really saying is that contests should lower their standards or give special consideration to musicals. But honestly, thats not what Im saying at all.

Although, musicals dont take all that much money to make and right now they are making a great deal of money at the box office. I mean, my goodness if all those remakes can bring in 100s of millions, just think what a brand new, GOOD ONE, could do.

Im not saying lower contest standards or criteria in anyway. Just give some other genres a chance and THINK about what makes a good musicals really good. Its not the same things that make dramas good.

Like how the story fits with the music or dancing. Or the originality of the adaptation of the story to dancing or singing. Or the dance choreography outline or lyrics of the songs.

These things are all very different from what makes a "quirky drama" good. But they are what seperate good musicals from bad ones and I don't think those things are considered AT ALL in script contests. Thats all Im saying.

But I understand your point and I agree. Contests should not LOWER their standards. On the contrary, I think they should raise them to include other criteria for other genres.

And.... Thomas, it's a deal.

OH YES....Thomas they are. I forgot that one and I love it so much. YES YES YES. My fairlady.

But you know what I loved most about THAT one. Besides "On the street where you live" of course. Was Audrey Hepburn, my idol, AND her clothes. I think her costumes in THAT ONE was better than SABRINA AND TIFFANYS.

I so hope they use the exact same dresses. But I just dont see how Knightly can compete with Audrey. I didn't care for the actress in the biography of her either. But I don't think I would care for anyone trying to be HER. Growing up I just thought she was so gorgeous and elegant.

We'll see I guess. Thank you Thomas, I knew there were more they are remaking I just couldn't remember them all and of course I do try to keep track of ALL of them.

Sorry James, I actually did think of you too but I was afraid if I just said James no one would know exactly who I meant. And Im sorry, I just couldnt remember how to spell your name. I have enough misspells, I truly didn't want to misspell YOUR name. Sorry.

And...Yes you ARE very clever too. But not overly so.

Hey Thomas, I meant to tell you they had this absolutely wonderful rendition of "South Pacific" on Public Television last Sunday. It was fantastic.

They werent in costume and they had the orchestra right on stage. But the singing was marvelous. Reba McIntire, played Nellie, a wonderful baritone who I am sure sings Opera, played the frenchman and another Opera singer played Mary. They sang it so beautifully I almost cried. Strike that, I did cry. I so wish good singing was back in style, too.

Irin,

The fact that Hollywood is digging up old bones of a musical (that in normal times) they would not DREAM of doing is proof that they ARE looking for musicals. They simply cant find any NEW ones amongst their own. HENCE my suggestion that (contests and agents) look for and promote these OTHER genres MORE.

And, it was just a suggestion. Geeeesh.

Timothy you're right, they did remake "the King and I" and it was dreadful.

But again that is my whole point. Hollywood is digging right now, thats obvious, I mean good grief who would touch Footloose unless they were really getting desperate.

Theyre just not digging in the right spot. New writers that dont live in Hollywood.

Patrick, stop it.

Hey have you been watching Idol? Theyre is a guy on there Adam, that would fit perfectly in a Rocky Horror Picture Show remake. For that matter ANY SCAREY CREEPY-musical. He has a KILLER falcetto. Thats a high shrill voice to any of you non music majors.

OMG. They are remaking Rocky Horror Picture too, arnt they. I read THAT some where too. SEE, DIGGING!

Actually Paul, its really NOT that bad of an idea. I know your being silly but just think about. All Mamma Mia did like I said before, was take a little romantic comedy and add Abba songs to it.

Why not a thriller with a well known (and popular) rock band music in it. I tell you check out American Idol, tues nights from 7-8:30 central time. Adam would be perfect for it. And hes a shew in to win.

Sorry Paul, it's on Fox network, in case you didn't know and since you don't like musicals you might not. But you'll like him . He's a scary rocker with mega pipes.

Movie Musical (released) budget (gross)

Mamma Mia (2008)52m (601 m)

Highschool musical(2008)32m (250 m)

Step up I(2006) 20.7 m (99 m)

Step up II(2008) 22.1m (143 m)

Hannah Montana(2008) 7 m (69.6 m)

Hairspray (2007) 75m (141 m)

Hannah Montana(2009) 35m and its only been out a week= (43 m 0

Now, these are all the musicals I mentioned before. What year they came out, how much it took to make them and how much they earned at the box office. I dont know about you but it sure looks to me that by how little it takes to make them (as compared to say action movies that is) they are doing REALLY well (right now).

And not only that but in my mind THESE are not even very GOOD musicals. Not like My Fair Lady, South Pacific, Oklahoma, West Side Story, etc etc. Not even Mamma Mia. The singing in IT was atrocious.

So it just seems to me that writing and.....PROMOTING a musical is a REAL good idea right now.

Ok, now that Ive done all this wonderful promoting for musicals I have to qualify everything I have said with something else.

There has ALSO been several musicals in the past few years IE: Caddilac Records, Idlewild, Ray, Dream girls, Drum Line, You got served, Feel the noise and She move me, that has not done anywhere near as well as the others I mentioned and in fact some of them flopped.

And the very interesting thing is, in my mind the singing and dancing was MUCH MUCH better in these than the others.

I would really like to think the reason for the big difference is that these were somewhat DEPRESSING topics handled in them where as the others were pretty CHEERY. But Im afraid THAT is not the whole picture.

Im afraid its because these are all black and the others are MOSTLY white. I dont like that. But, it looks like its possibly the truth. It looks like white people like musicals, even BAD musicals as long as theyre mostly white. THAT sucks. Please, Please, Please can't we get past THAT.

Ok, Ok, but for non musical fans you two sure know those silly lyrics pretty well. For SOME reason.

But thats not the way you do it. You have to take an actual rock song. Like say:

Fire....I think you should burn.

Or, wake up Maggie I think I have something to say to you.....

Or, jump (Van Halen's by the way)

Or, Schools out for the summer....

See, you have to work the Lyrics into your story, then your cast just sings it instead of talks it. You dont take a melody and change the lyrics. Good grief, amateurs.

Yes, Patrick , but if you dont use the original recordings and just have your cast sing it, I believe the royalitys are allot less. Mamma Mia did it somehow and I think they used something like 16 songs.

Thier budget was 50m and they made 600m so I think what ever they did, it was worth it.

Of course, they did use all the same band so you would definitely want to do THAT! Say like the Rollings Stone, Credance, The doors, Fleetwood Mac, Greatful dead.

You know, one that had allot of hits with LYRICS that you can easily adapt into your story. I just think its better than actual spoofing and more sucessful.

Actually, Sargeant Pepper was not quite what I meant. I mean if I remember correctly they simply took the beatles and built a "musical theme" story around them that was pretty unoriginal.

For some reason everyone seems to think a musical always has to be a "musical theme" story. One about some singer, dancer or rock band becoming a star. When actually most of the really good ones had very independant stories (just like the ones written on this site). They were just "music friendly".

Wizard of Oz, West Side Story, Pajama game, Damn Yankees, Oliver, Mary Poppins, State Fair,Carosol, My Fair Lady, Oklahoma, South Pacific, Kiss me Kate, Carmen, Cats and.....Mamma Mia.

"Music friendly" stories are simply ones that means there are times in the story when singing or dancing is a perfectly natual thing to do.

1. A mother singing her child to sleep 2. Someone is happy about something. 3. Someone is sad about something. 4. In the shower 5. Singing on a road trip in the car.

OR...the scenes or occosions in the story is condusive to singing and or dancing.

1. Church 2. a Prom 3. a dance 4. a fair 5. a wedding 6. grocery store that has piped music.

Sorry, I had to throw in that last one because thats my favorite place to dance. Anyway you get the picture. You take a story that has nothing what so ever to do with singing and dancing and make it a MUSICAL just as long as its "music/dance friendly".

I mean I understand that most of you dont think its very natural for people to just burst out singing or dancing. But for some of us, who grew up with allot of music in their home, it actually is.

And in these times. I think its a GOOD THING.

Terry,

I adored AMADEUS. My brother, who committed suicide 10 years ago was a classical pianist. Growing up I heard Bach, Beethovan and Mozart non stop on my mothers old "Chicago" upright.

But it doesn't fit on either one of the list I wrote because it did have a "musical theme" instead of just a "music friendly" one and the other list was RECENT (within the last 2-3 years) successful musicals.

Although, I do think both AMADEUS and CHICAGO did EXTREMEMLY well.

Sorry, I promise I won't leave them out of my next list because you're right, they were both excellant musicals. Although, I have to say I thought the acting in AMADEUS was much better than CHICAGO.

Sorry Thomas, I meant ( singing and/or dancing friendly). It was just easier to say music friendly.

And of course you are right about Rex Harrison and Terry is right about Salieri. Although, I think if you've ever seen Amadeus you would agree. He was better than Rex. But...Rex was much better actor than Audrey. I just always really liked her.

Oh I don't know Thomas. What about these? And they could SING. Rex Harrison? Not so much.

1. Robert Preston (Music Man and... Victor-Victoria)

2. Bette Midler (the Rose)

3. Barbara Striesand (Funny girl)

4. Tripoli (or whatever is name was) Fiddler on the Roof.

5. Liza Manelli (Caberet)

I think Paula's right. I think there's definitely an older market out there but the movie has to be good. Mamma Mia drew a big (older female) crowd.

Actually, it may have been allot of the same crowd that went to "TAKEN". And "GOOD" doesn't necessarily mean, blood and guts and allot of skin and sex. I did not watch Sex in the City.

My favorite movies at the theatre in the past year was Apaloosa, Taken, Austrailia, Slumdog and...Mamma Mia.

I think they just have to keep in mind that they could be getting ALLOT of older woman on their G and PG rated movies because I dont think they really understand what we like to see.

I really liked Twilight and I know I wasnt SUPPOSE to because Im an older woman.

Touché......Thomas

Sorry, Im late on this but I could have swore I saw it posted before. But I cant find it any where.

Anyway, way to go Jean, Terry and Mike for making the finalist list. Congrats. And to anyone I missed.

Actually, I think Mr. Negativity is right. I look at recent sells on the board all of the time and very , very few are NEW writers. But....it looks to me like scripts sells in general, are way up. Its just that the genre that selling right now is not what the NEW writers on this site are writing.

Ok, just look at what seems to be selling the most right now. Comedy, rom-com, romance , action and thrillers. Then look at how many of THOSe kind of scripts are listed on this site:

1. Romance-120

2. Rom-com-176

3. Family- 239

4. Action- 374

5. Thrillers- 391

6. Comedy- 499

Where as the most scripts listed on this site by new writers is whats selling the absolute least.

7. Drama- 752

So it just seems to me that PART of the solution would be to turn our scripts into romances, rom-com, thrillers, action or comedys. Then MAYBE that 13% would change. Doesn't that sound right?

Ha. Ha. Pat....rick! But come to think of it......

Cangrats. Irin, for first place at Script Savvy this month.

And... THAT's exactly why THIS is so frustraing for me.

Not only is MY dance musical very different from all of these rehashed ideas and remakes, it would also take TWO very strong singer-dancers, just like Christine, for the leading female roles.

GOOD GRIEF!

But hey, it also prooves my point that musicals are getting popular again. So Im happy.

DON'T WORRY, I promise Im not going to make this one of MY MUSICAL threads. I'm done.

I think you're right, Thomas. I mean good grief, why don't they just remake (Cabaret) (Sweet Charity) or (Flash Dance). At least THOSE three are pretty good versions of ALL THE SAME THING.

OH WAIT! they probably are. Good grief.

Hey, I see where they're doing a remake of(Damn Yankees). Now, I've been trying to think of who could possibly play Guen Verdons part. And Christina sounds really good to me for THAT part.

The Damn Yankees part takes a really strong singer/dancer, unless of course they are changing it for the remake, which would be a BIG BIG mistake. Any way, I just think that would be a much better move for her instead of doing the same old tire "a star is born in a burlesque club" story.

Oh! Another good choice for LOLA in Damn Yankees would be Nicole Schrzinger from the Pussy Cat dolls. Type casting?

She is an even stronger dancer than Christina. Anyway either one would be great.

Ok Ok , Im done again.

Joel, we had a 1st page thread on the board a while back. You might try starting a new one because everyone on the board is good about helping each other and you should get pretty good feedback.

Just be careful and make sure you double space. Ill do it for you if you have trouble. We just don't won't to rile Fredrick. OK?

OMG. I meant Frederick.

When you have your excerpt open on FDR go to FILE and on the drop down box there is a SAVE AS PDF. Hit that and it will ask you to name the PDF file. Name it and close it and you're good. Then you just pull it from your documents when you browse for it on the excerpt down load page here.

Great review Bobbette.

I plan to see Star Trek next week. Im so glad its worth seeing.

I saw Obsessed last week and I too was surprised I liked it. I mean sure it was allot like Fatal Attraction but there was some surprisingly good differences too.

To be honest I never liked the X-men series. The very first one was so.... busy I just couldn't watch the whole thing. So Im glad to hear Im not missing much by not watching it.

I think Channing would be perfect for my script but I just couldn't handle another street fighter movie. There have been so.....many. Im sure Ill watch it when it comes out on DVD though.

Thank you so much for the review. Please give us another real soon.

For your honorable mention. I entered this one on a fluke because I knew I didn't stand a chance. But Im so glad you did. Congrats. again.

Way to go Geof. Congrats.

Geoff. Sorry.

Thanks Bobbette. Great reviews, again. I adored Star Trek too. I think the problem with Terminator is they have made too many for so few of characters.

I will never forget the very first time I saw Terminator. My sister literally had to beg me to see it because I couldnt imagine anything with CONEN THE BARBARIAN in it as very good. But I was so shocked. And I know it was just because the movie was so.....different.

They cant get that (surprise element ) back which is why I dont think the remakes of this one can hold up.

Whereas with Star trek, it was so much fun relating everything I saw on it to the original series. Im still confused about Pike though because I thought he was mangled from his stay with the Romulans not just in a wheelchair.

Remember the episode about "Spock on trial"?

Anyway, I won't watch Dance Flick because I thinks its pretty easy and cheap to make fun of dance musicals. They are suppose to be silly in the first place, thats why people like them so much. Its called entertaiment.

So just taking a bunch of different dance musicals and making fun of them is basically like making more remakes, which Hollywood does enough with good ones let alone the mediocre ones too. Of course I don't praticularly like over the top slap stick,comedy anyway. Its just stupid not funny.

Terry, are you sure it's quaterfinal? Because the email I received this morning said I was on the semi-finalist list and they would have it posted on their site shortly.

Im just blocked from that site at work so I cant check it out until I get home. Actually, it doesn't matter to me which it is. Im always excited to get on any contest list.

Year, make and model?

Thank you Terry. But I wasn't talking about the car. Just kidding.

Burgandys nice. Vintage is a must. You know, most states wave the insurance statute now if of course, you have quite a bankroll.

SELL ONE OF THOSE DAGGONE SCRIPTS! YOU DESERVE IT! And a vintage burgandy corvette? I love it.

OK, so I wasnt really kidding. I adore corvette dealers.

I tried it. Thank you so much Frederick, it works perfectly.

THAT is not dancing. They are extremely amadextreous and it is genetic so its no surprise that all three can do it.

However I did really enjoy the singing. When brothers or sister acts sing its always so much better than other groups because their voices blend so well.

I do like ACROBATICS though. So thank you.

I agree with Terry, it is similar to Running Man in that aspect. But different in that the main action is in that week before the play is staged instead of the play itself.

I love it. Be sure and have allot of security for this death row inmate, kind of like" Silence of the Lambs" it allows for even more suspense and action.

Hey! Isnt this PDF attachment stuff wonderful? Thanks again Frederick.

By the way Jage , love your script. I know, your still not talking to me, but I still love the script.

I entered both the Mexico and Las Vegas contests through Without a Box and it was posted on both of them that my script was "not accepted".

I guess I just assumed at that time that it was because I don't live in Nevada or Mexico so I didn't think about it much until I started seeing these posts. So then I went back and read all of the rules and I didn't see any residency restrictions like that at all.

Naturally, they didn't reemburse me my entry fee. So, I think you may be right, there is some kind of scam out there involving these two.

Thanks for posting this. I'll keep my eyes open now.

Oh, the London International too. My contest picking skills really need work I guess.

Sorry, you wanted exact information didn't you.

1. Las Vegas International Film Festival- entered 2-17 then a few weeks later "not accepted"

2. Mexico International Film Festival- 4-1 then a month later "not accepted".

3. London Independent Film Festival 3-30 then again a few weeks later "not accepted".

I entered all of them through "With out a Box". I was looking for different contests to enter but I need to be more careful. But I just really didn't see anything on their rules and regulations that made me suspicious. They looked pretty standard to me. Well, I guess "live and learn".

I disagree. I think producers and directors do use Inktip allot. Every week in their Newsletter they post 5-10 listings from producers and what they are looking for. Then in the next couple of weeks they show that those producers found the script and or writer that they were looking for.

My only complaint is simply that Producers are not trying NEW writers. I mean they always seem to go to the ones that have already had something produced wether it was anything like what they were asking for or not. I mean, I have submitted to all of the Dance Musical requests .....and their has been several in the past year.

But I seem to always get beat out by "an experienced" writer. None of whom have ever written or produced a "dance musical" before. They don't seem to be interested in my dance, music or stage experience. Just that Ive never had a produced script before.

But, that seems to be the trend all over. It seems like they are just EXTREMELY leery of Newbies for some reason and I guess I just really don't understand why. I mean how can they expect to get NEW ideas unless the try NEW writers?

Congrats Irin, goodluck.

My logline gets allot of views at Inktip and a few synopsis/script views. But not as many as on Movie bytes. But, at least I know with inktip they are all producers or agents looking at it. Which of course on Moviebytes I don't.

But again I think its like I said before. Agents or producers are simply very mistrusting of new writers. They rather take an experienced writer who has no knowledge of the subject they're writing about than to try a new one. Its obviously very difficult to break down that Hollywood wall.

But I think that getting as much and as different coverage as you can and entering as many contests as you can afford really is the only way to go unless you "have connections in Hollywood". You never know, yours may be the "ONE".

Dan, I think it also depends on what kind of script you've written too. I mean if its a drama, like most of the winners in most of the elite contests are, then you're fine.

But if its a genre film, like comedy, family, sci-fi-, horror-thriller, action, musical, etc then I personally think its more important to find elite ones that cater to different generes like PAGE and STORY PROS AWARDS. They both have five different genre categories that you can enter your script into which makes your chances better. If its not a DRAMA, that is.

Also, I think Page is better than the other top ten because they let the finalist rewrite and..........even if you don't make the finals they may promote your script anyway. Just because it isn't contest winner caliber it could be perfect for a movie. Anyway, goodluck.

Oh, and this was just a rumor thing but I heard that Sundance is definitely a who you know thing. I of course don't know for sure because Ive never entered and never will but thats just what I heard.

My goodness. This thread has gotten wonderfully out of control and I wasn't even involved. How nice.

Just one question.

JIM, is your offer of (2 pages) good for anyone? Personally, Im always looking for FREE coverage or oppinions? And I can guarantee if its advertizing that you're looking for, anyone on here will tell you I have the biggest mouth of all and I will definitely give my oppinion on the boards.

I just stayed out of this one because its a stupid argument. Coverage and consulting is good no matter what. You can always ignore what doesn't sound right. And if you're offered it free you're suppose to take it...

So, what do you say? Since I wasn't one of the stupids on this thread. Can I send you (2 pages)? Mr. Mercurio. Please?

I love PAGE . I mean they constantly send you updates. Oh, and I love that little map and showing us how many scripts were entered in each category.

They just really seem to understand how to run a screenwriting contest. Some of the contests are so hap hazard about the entries and notifying us etc etc. But Page seems to pay attention to every single one of us.

I would encourage any one to enter PAGE. For any and all of the reasons Ive already mentioned. But mostly because I think you will have about the fairest chance possible in their contests just by how well it's run.

Oh thank you Paula, I found it and of course you know I wasn't referring to you when I said stupids.

I think that MOST producers assume that all of us newbies enter at least 10 contests a year so ..... it is somewhat impressive to them if we have a healthy string of placings from various different contests.

However, I do think Poetist is correct in that to actually get your foot in the door it takes a WIN at a pretigous one. But, by entering several you are also "networking" and getting your script and name out there. And....building a resume. I think its also good for showing you how you rank against other writers.

I just wish there was some way to convince producers to be more confident trying NEW writers. It seems to me THATS the BIGGEST problem. Most contests DO PUSH for new writers but producers arnt biting that much which is baffling to me .

I mean yes.....remakes do OK and the chances of them flopping are nil. But....NEW ones that are good do MUCH better. Check the box office out some time.

I just got through watching "Cat on a hot tin Roof" which I hadn't seen in a very long time and I had forgotten several things about it. One of which was the fact that it only spans one day. I think Tennesee Williams used that technique allot and it seems to be very effective to me.

I mean I can't think of a single movie like THAT that I didn't like.

Lion in Winter.

Street Car named desire

12 Angry Men

High Noon

Speed

Hunt for Red October

Wizard of OZ

Well, some of these may have been more than one day but close. But I liked all of these and I just can't think of any that I didn't like. So it seems to me, for dramas anyway, thats the way to go.

Can anyone think of more good ones like that and explain what the trick is? Or proove me wrong if you like. It just seems they are all really good and I cant seem to figure out (as compared to movies that span a much longer period that it). I suppose its the intensity.

I think you're right. Lion in Winter does take place over more than one day but close. She's let out of the tower for just one day wasn't she?

It seems to me there has to be an occasion or an event that causes the movie to just take place over that short of a period. Action films do it allot too. Sometimes the build up is a few days but the main action of the film is just one day.

1. Commando 2. Terminator 1

3. Taken

My script isnt a drama or action film but it only takes place over one week. Kind of like Dirty Dancing and West Side story. Actually thats somewhat standard for musicals I think. Your "My fair lady" doesnt span that much time either.

1. Chorus Line

2. All that Jazz

3. Mamma Mia

4. Oklahoma

5. State Fair

I guess Im just saying that it seems to me that the more you can condense your time frame the better and besides the intense drama or action unfolding I think there must be an occasion. Im not a BIG drama fan but the ones I really like just took place over a short period of time.

1. In the Heat of the Night

2. Glass Managerie

3. Time to Kill

4. Reap the Wind (that may be wrong Ill look it up)

5. Anatomy of a murder

See, trials or criminal investigations are occasions that span a short time but allows for intense action or drama. But so do weddings, funerals, Birthdays, festivals, contests, programs, election days etc. As a matter of fact wasn't it Elenor's birthday in "Lion in Winter"?

Oh my goodness. One of the best ACTION films took place over one day, Christmas eve.

Die Hard

"Wait until Dark" IS a perfect example. You not only have the fear and intensity of something we all fear, someone breaking into our house while we are still there, but also the woman's disability which makes her more vulnerable and makes us even more sympathetic.

Rear Window kind of did that too, with Jimmie Stewart in the wheel chair. But it wasn't as good as "Wait until Dark". See? One day , or a few days and one location makes good movies. Less is best. Of course you have to get the right combination of everything else to make it work.

I agree with Terry. We did slug you allot for not having standard screenwriting software but now that you have it don't try to get too complicated. I read a whole list of do's and don'ts for entering your script in a contest once and they seem to all spell (quick and easy to read for the judges). Short action paragraghs, more white paper than words, short dialogue, minimal parenthesis, etc etc.

Although I will have to say I have had my hands slapped once for making my dialogue too... short. It seemed choppy to them and the description paragraphs were not clear enough. But of course that all falls into the " easy to read" category. If they struggle to read your script= they won't. I agree , keep it simple and clear.

I agree that Hollywood seems to be tightening their belts by just doing remakes and sequels. However I don't agree that economic wise , they should. They can just as easily go in the hole with remakes and seasoned writers as they can new ones. And actually chances are since they usually do go to more new writers than they have recently , that they will flop. Very soon.

Audiences in general are very , very tired of remakes. You can see that in the difference between how well a GOOD new movie does at the box office as compared to how GOOD remakes do. You can see it on the movie boards too. What will happen is they will not go to them at all and simply FLOCK to the new ones. So I personally think it would be a very wise decision on the part of producers to go back to their usual trend of actively SEEKING new writers and new material. That way they could make their USUAL profit which they wont be doing very soon if they keep this up.

I personally have not seen any of the remakes except Star Trek and that really wasn't a remake . No one has ever done "the beginning " of star trek before.

But I think others will stop watching remakes too because I can't think of one that is as good as the original. Not even Pelham 123, one of my favorite old movies. It really is not doing that well at the box office and had very bad reviews.

I truly think producers are digging a hole for themselves if they don't go back to buisness as usual.

Grand Torino (budget-35m) grossed 266m

Slumdog (budget-15m) grossed 361 m

Wrestler (budget- 7m) grossed 35m

Now granted these are adaptations but they are all NEW to the screen so I consider them NEW movies not remakes or sequels and THEY did much much better than any remakes. You have to consider how little their budget is as compared to the take. Transformers and Pirates have budgets from (150m to 200m) so what did they do? Double? Heck, Grand Torino did 8 times their budget. Slumdog> 24 times as much. Now THATS something.

And what about the two NEW movies out NOW that are STILL leading ALL of the remakes and sequeals in the second and third weeks?

Hangover

UP

Are either one of these adaptations? They are definitely NEW and "Hangovers" budget was only 35m and it has already made 126m. Up's was 68m and it has made 207m. I saw Up and thought it was the funniest thing Ive seen in a very long time. Im not sure if Hangover could even be considered "good" but it is definitely NEW.

"He's just not that into you" did pretty well too. Another NEW movie that I personally did not think was all that great but its budget was only 27m and it has taken in 166m. What is that? 6 times as much? Anyway, my point is NEW does BETTER than remakes and sequels. GOOD NEW does MUCH MUCH better than remakes.

If they keep playing the SAFE remake game eventually theyre going to loose and it won't be "safe" anymore.

OK, OK, lose not loose.

There are really no existing dance musicals like mine either so I basically just stayed in the genre and found ones that were in (some-part) similar. But you really don't have to three movies up. Its just a tool.

Wow, it has been so...long since I saw "Rebel without a cause" and I always get it mixed up in my memory with his other one . You know "East of Eden" , Steinbeck wasn't it?

Anyway, I think you're right. It was just 24 hours or close to. And didnt it win a couple of oscars? I adored Sal Mineo (spelling , Im not sure) in that and then Sand Pebbles. He was so cute and died so young just like James Dean. He was something like 24 wasnt he? Hey, who wrote that anyway?

American Graffiti is another really good example. It was pretty low budget and won some academys too didnt it? And yes it did last just one day.

I have to admit I didnt watch it when it first came out because I was kind of sick of ALL of the 50's imitation going on at that time. I graduated from highschool that year and it seemed like every one was making fun of THAT time period.

But later I did and I really liked it. I guess I just always thought Happy days was a spin off of it so it was just silly. But it really wasnt.

Bus Stop

God's Little Acre

The Conversation

Are also ones I really liked that I think were just a (one day movie) or close. These three were pretty highly praised, low budget and awarded too , I believe. It just seems to me like the thing to do. If possible of course.

Sorry it wasn't "Reap the Wind" it was ....

Inherit the Wind

Also a couple more I think were just one day(or close) and did pretty well.

Guess who's Coming to Dinner

Member of the Wedding

PAGE, PAGE, PAGE. I don't care what any of you say. I think they are just wonderful. And they dont just pick one winner . They pick five.

Actually, for the early 1950's that piece was extremely different than anything else . I mean the theme is kind of run of the mill NOW. You know troubled teen, teenage click and gang pressure etc etc. But it sure in the heck wasn't then.

Good grief HE had to have been the one that started it because I dont recall anything remotely like THAT before it. This is exciting. His name is familiar. Ill have to go see what else he wrote. Dont tell me unless I dont come back.

He did do some wonderful things. I saw all of these but its been a very long time.

The Outsiders

Rachel, Rachel

The Ugly American

Thunder in the Sun

and of course Sybil (I saw several times)

Thank you for reminding me of him. Im always looking for really good older movies that I havent seen in a while . Im pretty sure I can order them from Amazon if I cant rent them some where.

I just cant stand very many NEW movies these days because they are so.....heartless and shallow. They simply just don't write them like they use to. And definitely not like Stern did. Besides, I adore Paul Newman, Marlon Brando and Tony Curtis (they don't make actors like those anymore either). So I will find them. Thank you again, you have made my day.

I really liked Blackboard Jungle too. And....I dont think it covered a really long period of time either. However, I dont recall any romance in it and Rebel without a cause definitely had one. I love romances.

Of course Terry's right . Unless.....you just happen to have a very very special script. Some people do and it just takes Hollywood a very long time to find it or realize it so please don't get discouraged by ALL of the bottom lines. You just MIGHT have that special one.

PHONEBOOTH! That was the one I first thought of, aside from my first one and I couldnt for the life of me think of the name. Too obvious I guess.

Thank you, thats another perfect example and its both a drama and action thriller.

Sorry. I didn't like Breakfast Club. So for me. That one may be proof that condensing the time frame doesn't nessesarily make a good story...better.

Im not sure why I didn't except maybe it was simply the cast . I think the premise was good. Saturday detension hall and all of the different highschool types thrown together in close quarters for one day. But the cast pretty much consisted of well known offspring didn't it?

Anyway Im really not crazy about Molly Ringwald. I didnt like Sixteen Candles either and I think for the same reason. You know. Privledged spoiled brat movies. Sorry. But yes, it was definitely 24 hours.

I know , I know it's not even the Quarterfinals yet but Im so excited I can't see straight. I just got my email. See? I told you they were WONDERFUL. They didnt tell me what genre I made it in though. I entered in 3.

Anyway, just curious to see who else entered and made the very first cut. GOOD LUCK TO EVERYONE THAT DID.

Thats great Julia. Good luck. Oh, could everyone say what genre they entered in too please. Mine was Family, Comedy or Action-Adventure. Like I said, I dont know which one it made it in. I assume Family because that was the smallest category but I might be wrong. ISNT THIS EXCITING?

It looks to me like she was just trying to proove her vocabulary was as good as yours. Hey, tell her to try Password. The people on there are driving me crazy. They have no vocabulary range...AT ALL.

John P, Karen and Nathan what are your genres?

John P.

Like Karen said, mine said my script made it to the second round (the top 25%). And whoever makes the second cut (the top 10%) will be the quarterfinalists. Which if Nathan's genre is what I think it is that probably won't happen for me. But hey, maybe I am in comedy or action instead of FAMILY after all. HOW WONDERFUL. OPTIONS. I just LOVE this contest.

Way to go Patrick . Thanks Evie and everyone else but lets not jinx each other. I was just curious about whos in and thier genre.

Genres please?

Transformers II- I found the first one a little boring so I wont go to the second.

Pelham 123- It is not possible for anyone (not even Hackman and Washington) to outshine Walter Mathau and Robert Shaw in those two roles. And thats exactly why I don't watch remakes. It was don't perfectly the first time.

Hangover- I DO plan to get to this one.

I don't do horror.

Great review though, Bobbette, as always. Thanks.

They better. It took them 200 mil to make the stupid thing. I really dont understand the concept of putting THAT much money into a movie which at BEST can only double their cost. Really good lower budget movies can make up to 20 times as much as the cost to make them.

I mean, if your goal is to make 400 mil wouldn't it make more sense to simply find a new writer with a much more original and new "Transformer Story" ? Heck, I myself could have came up with a more original plot and story about the TRANSFORMER TOYS than THAT one.

Anyway....then they could have made it for allot less. Say 50 mil and Banked 350m instead of just 200m. Doesnt THAT make a whole lot more sense?

Hey EVERYBODY. I just got my first two pages back from Jim Mercurio's proof reader and I thought he was GREAT.

I mean OK he's a tad snobby but hey who isn't that has allot of experience in his profession. Heck, I am myself as a claims adjuster training new people. It's just very hard not to show that edge when you constantly have to explain the same old thing to somebody. Even if it is some one new. It gets very old.

Anyway, besides the grammer and industry standard check he did on mine, what I really liked was the suggestions he made to condense what I was trying to say.

What I find the hardest in screenwriting is figuring out what really needs to be said and doesn't. What is important to detail and what isn't. Its very hard for me to condense without getting choppy and he actually gave my some new insight into it that I think was FANTASTIC.

Also, his service to proof read an entire script , to me , seems very reasonable. Of course I don't know that I would use it for contests but I definitely plan to use it if I ever get a request from a producer to read my script. I recommend him. He's GOOD!

jamespmercurio.com/services proofing.html

OK. It is true that TRANSFORMERS (2007) BANKED (which means after cost what they took home) 550 mil. And that makes the only one of about 8 movies that has done THAT (or better) in the past 2 years or less.

1. Transformers 2. Indiana Jones 3. Shrek 4. Spider Man 5. Harry Potter 6. Pirates 7. Dark Knight 8. Mamma Mia

Now, ALL of these movies took a BUDGET OF 150M to 300M to rake in this kind of cash. Except ONE.

MAMMA MIA

Their budget was only 52M just one year ago. Hey who knows in another year they could be banking 600 to 700 mil. Tom Hanks is so clever.

Now, please keep in mind this is TOPPING OUT. It is not conceivably possible to make more than this. Even if you spend more. PIRATES, seem to be the highest budget at 300 mil and basically they only made 3 times their budget in 2 years. Its just that unless, theatres raise their ticket price it is just NOT possible to do better than this.

So why not spend less and conceively (in the long run) get more. What these BIG BIG budget movies are taking (by comparison to their budget) is nothing compared to what NEW movies by fairly NEW writers have done.

1. Juno 7 mil > BANKED 220MIL 2. Slumdog 7 mil> BANKED 353 MIL 3. Gran Torino 35mil> BANKED 230 mil 4. Twighlight 37 mil> BANKED 320 mil 5. Knocked up 30mil > 200 mil

ETC.

I mean basically its true that they have to spend allot to make allot except in certain cases (good, new, original stories) . Then they dont have to spend THAT much at all. And if they think the more they stay away from new writers and spend big budget on older ideas and writers, the less chance they have of flopping . Theyre wrong . That possibilty is equal for new/old/ big /little budget, whatever.

Actually, I would think flopping on those MONSTER budgets would be really ugly.

Congrats Terry Frazier for "Hog Heaven" in Action and "Calliope" in Family. I made it as well in Family and if they just judge by TITLES I think I got you beat.

Just kidding. GOOD LUCK.

HAH! Hopefully BOTH. But we shall see. May the BEST corvette lover win.

See? Every single one is good.

DANA, That IS A CLASSIC and REALLY , REALLY GOOD. I havent seen it in years. I think Ill go find it some where. Maybe the Library will have it. Thank you so much.

Thank you, Robert and Irin.

Congrats.

Patrick S., Jean , Jage, Irin , Tom B, Derrick and Terry F.

Sorry I didn't chime in sooner but I was so... bummed that I didn't make it myself. Im so jelous.

GOODLUCK.

Congrats Terry.

Terry, I know this is a bit off the subject but I have a question and please don't snap my head off. I mean I know Ive never read this before but just by what I have read it sure sounds like a MUSICAL. I mean, with Mozart teaching her piano lessons and her going back into time it really lends itself to some wonderful new music, singing and dance Choreography. Heck , Vienna? She could stop off at Strauss's era and WALTZ.

No, Im not suggesting changing anything Im just saying this is the only point I was trying to make before about "Music Theme scripts or Music friendly ones" and yours actually sounds like both. I just think there are allot of writers on this site that have written scripts that could easily be Musicals and don't know it. Musicals are hot right now. I mean goodgrief they're remaking Caruousel and that was one of Roger's and Hammersteins worst. Heck its obvious they're looking for NEW ones and all they really are are good stories with singing and dancing in them. Although, they do have to lend themselves to THAT and yours definitely sounds like it does.

Im just saying you seem to be doing pretty well in the contests with this so if a producer suggests MUSICAL to you please don't freak out. There are tons of wonderful song writers, singers and dance choreographers in Hollywood that could only make your script better not worst. Its simply another marketing option for it and any good musical producer could spot the potential in this one in a heart beat. So please stay open. You never know. That might be the way to go.

I don't know about the rest of you but "Who's Buying What" is sure looking pathetic to me these days. I check it about once a week and it's been a VERY long time since I saw a new sold script that sounded half way interesting.

They are naturally pretty much all by "already sold" writers but good grief they sound stupid and of course pretty UNORIGINAL. HEY, maybe this means they will be turning to US pretty soon. One can hope.

Congrats Irin and Geoff.

Im not real sure what Bobbette meant either unless she is making a reference to the level of competition. Which if Terry and Michaels going to be in it, is pretty high.

I was thinking real strongly of entering because my protagonist is BOTH female and minority. But NOW! Maybe not.

Personally, I think trying different contests all the time is a really good idea. Especially since I cant figure out for the life of me how to list the same contest I placed in on this site for different years. Does anyone know how?

Anyway, you really dont know what contest is good for you, no matter what anyone else says until you try it yourself. If it looks good to you and your script fits the criteria give it a try. Who knows, you might win. And "winnings" a good thing no matter what contest it is.

I didn't see any where that it had to be positive or likable. It looks to me like they are just looking to get more feature films with women and minorites in lead roles. It doesnt say anything about what kind of role it is or who in the heck writes it. So go for it. You never know.

And by the way Terry , I think you should use that line on someone your own size. What have I got ? 20 years of screen writing experience I need, to get on your skill level? Thats like asking a mouse to a cat fight. I think Ill pass.

Whoa Paula, I was complimenting him not insulting him. Goodgrief.

And....when you ask someone to a dual which Im sorry when he said his girls were scrappy and why dont I throw my script in, one is referring to the other persons skills. Which I admitted and I admit again mine are not equal to his. Writing that is. It was meant in gest. Relax.

Well , I disagree it doesnt seem to me that creativity trumps experience on these contests AT ALL. But, my hubby (of almost 30 years by the way, well 16, out 2, plus 10) just told me to shut the blank up and enter the daggone contest. So I will. Certain things seem to trump both creativity and experience. So, YOU win again Terry. Good luck. But I really dont think you need it.

Sorry Orlanda, but this thread isnt the one that made the Quarterfinals list. This was the cut before the QF which was announced 7-1. Most of us on this thread did not make it. But you can find the QF thread about 15 threads down under Page Quarterfinalists. But thanks anyway for the encouragement.

Congrats. Terry for Hog Heaven and Calliope.

See, I knew you would make it and I wouldn't. But Cenosure might be a different story because I've been polishing my "Corvette" all month and just got it in today. So watch out.

Good luck. Hopefully, you hit the top. You deserve it.

Sorry, Stephen. Congrats and goodluck to you too. Hey, you didn't enter Cynosure too did you?

We had another thread going on this same subject and Aubrey Kelly got on and stated that its states right in the rules that they take almost a year for their whole contest process.

So chill and just go enter another contest. Trust me, if you set your sights on any ONE contest you'll end up heart broken. Besides, there are several of us on this board on THAT QF list too. Moi included.

Hello! The BAND- CHORUS (Music geeks). Which I was one.

Oh, Irin that's wonderful. Way to show us how its done.

OMG.

Thats not very funny you two. The only possible way for non-hollywood new writers to get anywhere is with these contests. So, if a well established writer is entering these contests too, when he doesnt meet the contests criteria. I for one, would be very angry.

Especially when he has 3 SCRIPTS in the PAGE quarter finals right now that possibly could have gone to 3 OTHER derserving NEW writers. I personally was extremely bummed by making the first but not the second cut for the QFs.

SO AGAIN, NOT FUNNY . you guys.

Its just funny that you mention braids Evie because I've only had my hair cut once in my entire life and I do where my hair, always in one, very, very long braid.

AND I DON"T like it pulled by none of you STUPID BOYS!

Congrats Terry F And......Shephen H. I really hope I can do this again (for the fourth time) July 31. Good luck you two.

Congrats. Ron and Irin. Hey, where IS Ron these days? Anyway, goodluck on the next round.

Congrats. Cat

Ok, I know this is a dumb question. But aren't the two terms co-dependant and is it really possible to have a great concept but a weak premise? I guess I just don't understand how that's possible. Can someone explain?

Hoover,

I don't think its fair to say all critism of reviewers is simply a result of writers not being able to take critisim.

I think it's pretty common for a reviewer to read a script and personally just not care for it just for no other reason except their own personal taste. But instead saying " I just don't like it" they will make comments and say things are wrong with it, that arn't, in their report and make no sense at all.

And that doesn't help us. So yes we should complain about those readers.

Congrats. John A and Evie's friend. Making Nicholl's quarterfinals is really something. Goodluck you guys.

Congrats Jean, Irin, Terry, Derrick, Stephen, Jage, Tom Bragg and any other MB's I missed. Goodluck, EVERYONE, in the next round.

Actually, Michael, I never received mine either. I never ordered it last year so I didn't know how long it takes so I didn't worry about it. But this is kind of long isn't it? Maybe we should say something.

BY THE WAY, congrats Terry for second place and Stephen for the producer hitch. Im so happy for both of you.

congrats. Timothy

Thank you, John and Irin , for sharing the comments you received. Obviously, this is contest gos on my "DO NOT ENTER" list.

There have been allot of threads lately putting down people who complain about readers and contests etc and this I think, is a perfect example of why "we should" continue to complain or at least inform. Thank you.

Actually it seems to me that the FIRST reader in all of the contests are the FORMAT-GRAMMER-STRUCTURE police. I agree with Irin that it doesn't make any sense to soley judge a script on those qualities.

Ive had coverage and comments come back from different readers and differents contests in the vein of "great title, great concept , great marketability". Too bad the plot and characters are not developed properly. What?

Congrats. James. I made the semi's in their last contest and that's as far as it went but Im sure you'll do better. Good luck.

Congrats. Tom and your partner. Goodluck in the next round.

I always geer to keep my script at 90 pages. But thats because its a dance musical and you you take into account 2-3 minutes per routine and....they at least keep 10 of the 14 routines then it easily hits a 2 hour movie.

I think the standard is to keep it at 2 hours or less. So at a page a minute (if there is mostly white on it) then that of course is 120 pages.

My inspiration to write (this time) was because I have a perfect idea for a dance musical. I tried writing before but it was always with a book in mind and I really wasn't that serious about it before.

But this time was simply because it just hit me, the perfect way to put a dance musical together that is. Also, there were a few other things. Discovering how to make it new and different from any other dance musical, the fact the dancing (ballroom that is) is so popular right now and......discovering a couple of perfect dancers for it.

You see, a dance musical has to have a story that is condusive to allot of dancing. And that really is not as easy as it sounds with out it seeming phoney or contrived which it will a little bit no matter what but you dont want it to be contrived any more than it has to be.

Anyway, I actually never even thought of trying a script until suddenly all of these things came together , almost 3 years ago. Also,my script is loosely based on a true story so it was just a matter of INOVATION.

For me.....initially it was probalby seeing how popular the ballroom dancing reality shows are.

I use to think coverage or feedback from contests is good no matter what. But I just got my feedback from a couple of contests that I entered over 6 months ago so basically it's useless.

I mean, I don't know about the rest of you but my script can change ALLOT in 6 months and chances are all of the issues pointed out in feedback 6 months later Ive already found and corrected (myself). So it really is not helpful to get feedback THAT LATE.

Now granted mostly I didn't pay for it but this may be a selling point for some writers to enter their contests. It use to be for me. So Im just saying Im not going to choose contests be wether or not they offer feedback anymore because they're too slow to do me any good.

Yes, Script savvy is very fast and I think they are wonderful too. But I have used them several times on this script already so they told me not to enter it again. So, thats no longer an option. But if you know of some one else, please let me know.

Patrick and Mike,

Thanks for again mentioning that the leads at Inktip are a bit screwy. I know for a fact my little dance musical can compete with any other new dance musical if it gets a chance. But not once have I received a request to read my script from ALL of the dance musical leads that I answered at Inktip. So, it makes me feel a LITTLE better to know that the leads are not necessarily serious ones. Thank you.

Paula,

I don't have the kind of money it would take to produce my script ( sucessfully). But what if I finished converting it to stageplay form and went to the local Theatre? I thought possibly I could ask them if they would be interested in helping me stage my dance musical.

I mean I thought about it before but Des Moines, Iowa is not Chicago or New York and I just couldnt see any way to get the kind of dancers/actors needed for my script. But the more I thought about it the more I realized I have allot of different local dance studio, dance club and performing groups contacts that I could use to get the dancers, choreographers, acrobats, ballroom and country dancers etc. that I need.

And possibly we could just pick from those dancers for the leading parts. I mean Ive always said my leads would have to be strong dancers so why do they have to be REAL actors at all?

Anyway, do you see any real down side to this idea? I mean Ive worked in theatre and on stage before but Ive never written a stage play or put a whole show on myself. I just dont know how all of that works but of course that where the theatre would come in. Again, does this sound like a good idea or not?

Julia,

Actually , going from little theatre group to another is the problem. Iowa does not have allot of little theatre groups. But they have some. So Ill work on it.

But, the main problem is getting ALL of the right dancers. My script has allot of different dance styles in it (ballroom, country western, gymnastics, hip hop and contemp. ballet not to mention exotic dancers). So to find all of these groups and choreographers, get them to work together and ....work with me and a theatre will be the hardest part.

I have some dance connections around here but I don't know about getting these groups to work together.

Paula, I believe in theatre how its done is that they rent your script. So basically I can be allot more active in the production than with film. My other problem is if I cant get it done right it could be a total disaster. And that would not be good from promoting it to a bigger stage and/or eventually film.

The day I picked to do it last year was the hottest day of the summer. I couldn't get the shots I wanted and Im a terrible photographer. It needed much more planning to work.

Thanks "a lot" Pat....rick!

And it sounds like they're using the actor that I always thought would be perfect for MY dance musical. First it was Footloose now Dirty Dancing? What next? Urban Cowboy?

That would make all of my "in the vein of" movies for my script complete. I'm really sick of this. They seem to be re-making every dance musical similar to mine. But they can't even read mine? I'm so bummed!

Thanks guys. I just don't understand why they won't even give me a chance. I've been on Movie bytes over a year now. I've made the cut in 11 contests (almost just as many as I've entered) in just the past year. And I've emailed every dance musical producer, director, choreographer, actor that I can think of , several times. And still NOT ONE response or request to look at my script.

I mean, its obvious that writing a dance musical right now was a good idea. But goodgrief, what good did it do if no one will even discuss it with me. Im just afraid that by the time they finally do, my perfect leading man will be too old and dance musicals will not be so hot anymore.

Sorry, just whining again.

Congrats. Paula, good luck .

Contgrats. Irin.

Im with Irin too. I really pushed to get my script into them by the deadline yesterday and I could have really used another week or two. But now my only choice is to pay again? Its not tweaking. Things just dont come to you when the pressures on. But when its off, all sorts of things do. Its just not fair to extend the deadline AFTER the original final deadline has passed.

Isn't this the same writer that did "Little Miss Sunshine"? And I believe that was very low budget, even with Alan Arkin in it. But at the time the writer was unknown but I thought she worked for a studio or something like that. Anyway, her first script even received best new script for a new writer at the Academy too didnt it? But no matter how you look at it if she worked for a studio she still had a little bit of an edge.

Juno's another one that was really low budget by a brand new writer and look what it did. But again I think Diablo had some kind of publisher friend or someone that got her foot in the door. Neither one of them , I dont think had to enter a bunch of contests. Did they?

"My big fat greek wedding" did pretty well and was pretty low budget too for a brand new writer. But again, someone that had studio connections I believe.

I just think guys have a lot of nerve calling "chick flicks" boring because I just recently saw a couple of really boring action films. "Fighting and Push". I mean good grief they took for ever to get any where. I can guarantee neither one of those would ever place in one of these contests.

Thats true too. Good grief I was total lost in Xmen and Divinci code. But I adored Taken and the latest Star Trek. But the two I mentioned above were just down right boring. Partly I guess because we have seen every action plot, special effects , moves etc now but I think these two just simply moved slow. I dont know maybe Dontiel with Fighting thought he was doing something more than just an action film and was trying to be DEEP. But it wasnt. It was just boring.

I usually dont complain about contests or coverage because my attitude usually is that you can always go to someone else .

However, in this case I think the complaint is legitimate and necessary. It appears to me that these contests have started doing this (extending their deadlines) on a regular basis because no one has complained or challenged them on it. I think to a point Dan is correct. Its a contract.

But the real issue is that they extended the deadline AFTER the original FINAL deadline passed. I dont think there is a breach of contract if they extend it before the original final deadline.

Also, I highly doubt that a contest will shut down simply because we are complaining about something (legitimate) . Obviously these contests are making pleanty of money. So its not fair to make us think were destroying the whole contest circuit by complaining.

This is actually the first contest I have seen extend their final deadline AFTER the original final deadline was past. Extending deadlines after the contest has started is rather suspicious anyway, but one started doing it then they all did. Now they are moving to changing it after the original deadline is over?

Its kind of like changing the rules of the game after it starts or changing language in a release after its been signed. I suppose if you think this is OK what will you think when they decide after a week or two "they dont have enough money" and suddenly put up a new deadline? Where do you draw the line?

Too True Thomas, on every thing you said.

I think Paula's right. I have a couple of contest submissions on WAB that it obviously appears that the contest has not downloaded my script yet. So I think Ill just renew my version and see what happens. Thanks Paula.

I just saw Delta force on TV. I havent seen it in a long time and it was great. But I think Thomas is right. I can think of at least 3 action films since Delta Force that the plot is very similar.

SEE?

Actually, Ive decided to take a new atitude about remaking dance musicals, especially ones I listed as (in the vein of) on my script details.

It's actually kind of flattering because obviously Im on the right track with whats hot right now. Its other styles of dancing and older style dancing not just hip hop.

I have mixed feelings about this one though. I grew up with Soul train and it was the best dancing show there was. But with them calling it Soul train (the movie) it feels phoney like making a movie about Star Search, American idol etc etc. But......if the do it kind of like "girls just want to have fun" which is being remade also, I beleive, then I think it could work.

I mean......if they came up with a good title and found a true story that simply involved the show I think its a good idea. Besides the dancing being so much better than any one else I remember the clothes. Every one seemed to be competing as much on how they dressed as danced.

Also, I guess Fred Astaire watched Soul Train religously. I remember one interview he gave about wanting so much to be able to dance like those kids.

See , Im sure there are TRUE STORYS out there that involve the show indirectly which I think would make a PERFECT dance musical. They just have to find old dancers from the show and ask them for stories.

And.....they should definitely involve Beyonce because she is so good with old style.

Actually , all the really good films these days seem to be the low budget ones. Slumdog Millionaire was pretty low too and look what happened to it. But didn't someone like like Clint Eastwoods son write Gran Torina?

Someone on the boards said it is very hard for Hollywood to RECOGNIZE a "good" script now days so they just stick with people they know. I think thats true too. But, if any of us have a chance of slipping through without knowing someone in Hollywood, Inktip would probably be how we do it. I like Inktip. So Ok , Ill go renew my listing.

Evie,

That's just plan silly because if they buy my script (which again, is loosely based on a true story) they can change my two leads any way they want to. Just as long as they have the male (unrecognizably) something and the female all something and (this something) makes them very different from the crowd, then it should Work.

I mean they could be Jewish, Hawian, Russian, Old, young, handicapped just about anything could work if its THAT important to them.

Oh, Oh, I know. How about if they make my cowboy slightly ALIEN and my leading lady a full blooded ALIEN princess? I suppose they would feel more comfortable with THAT than ( black and white). Good grief!

And by the way Dan, I have about 5 scripts but they are ALL dance musicals. I've listed them before but whats the point if I can't get any one interested in this one? Its the best. Im an ex professional dancer and dancings what I know. The market may be small but its definitely HOT right now. Thats why I started. I have several ex-dancer friends that are writing now too so you may see them on here any time now too. So just get use to it buddy.

Walter,

Love your analogy " they just have tons of bouncers" . It was perfect. Also, I agree with you about Gran Torino but because I can't imagine a brand new writer (or one that isn't related to Clint Eastwood) getting away with all of the racial slurs. Actually as I watched the show I couldn't imagine any other star but Clint Eastwood getting away with playing THAT part. Although Caroll did with Archie Bunker.

But THEY SHOULD. Thats real life and thats how people are and for Hollywood to hide it makes it worse not better. Who knows, maybe with Gran Torina (a very politically un correct film) doing so well maybe they'll lighten up and not be so afraid to try one of us non-Hollywood writers too.

Anyway, Terry gave a lot of good examples of low budget movies by new writers that make it through and do really well. But my point was that some of THEM still had minor connections in Hollywood so they weren't EXACTLY like US. But hey, theyre getting a lot of flack for all of these remakes they're doing so maybe they'll get more Newbie friendly here any time.

Congrats. John, and great title.

Terry,

Yes, and thats what I said about Grand Torino. It was realistic and it showed racism in the proper light (how stupid it is). I was just pointing out that "on the surface" (which is how a lot of coverage and contest readers see scripts) there is racism. And I doubt that any of us could do that (without a lot of flack)

My script has racism in it and its not any where near as blatant as Grand Torino was and I too put it in the proper light> that its stupid. But...just about every other reader makes a comment about it. Basically that its offensive. So Im just suggesting that its not THAT EASY for us little people to do.

I adored Gran Torino by the way and a big part of why I did because they were gutsy and real. Which very few movies are these does. However, the really good ones are.

PS. I stand corrected. I don't feel the Grand Torino was in any way Politically incorrect either. As a matter of fact I think it was VERY correct politically or other wise.

You don't think it was when he chased the gang off his lawn with his rifle? I mean, it seems like , even though not intentionally, thats when he starts to change . I mean there is a moment later with the girl that definitely shows hes going to change but I think the rifle/gang on his lawn scene triggered it.

That is so....wonderful John. I'm so rooting for you. Good luck again.

I didnt enter this one and Im kind of glad now. Good grief you cant even enjoy the first cut.

Terry,

I understand what you mean. But, that scene on the lawn where he forces the gang to leave and stop bothering the neighbor kid triggers the close interaction with the family next door that was needed for him to change.

Most racism has to do with simply not interacting with the other race. Or if they have, their interaction with them was slight and negative. Which I believe can cause racism too. But the majority of the cause is segregation. Walt lived in a high minority area but he built a wall around himself so he never really interacted with anyone. But THIS scene, forced him to.

After this scene the neighbors and all of their friends continually brought food and gifts over to him because they were so grateful to him for protecting the neighbor kid. The (orientals in the neighborhood) suddenly viewed HIM in a different light and basically forced him to (get to know them). The kids sister was grateful and started making friends with him wether he wanted to or not.

All of this (positive) interacting made him realize that his bigot barriers were silly. These people are just people like him.

However, my son says the "moment" is easy. It was when he went to the doctor and found out he was terminal. Then he called his son and realized he had already broken his ties with him so he started building a friendship with the neighbor kid and his sister.

But I think "the moment" was sooner than that. Let me know if you ever figure out what the "Save the cat moment" was.

Actually, I think it could have been even sooner than that. Because good grief if he really hated other races why didn't he just move? Thats what most racist people do. But he never did , for some reason. I know, I know, it was his home and he wasnt going to let anyone push him out. But......

I occasionally look at other writers script excerpts but I think probably in the almost 2 years Ive been on here Ive only done that about 10 times and they were all different ones but in my genre. Just to get a look at how other people in my genre write. I dont think other writers do it that much eaither but I quess if we're all doing it occasionally it could really add up.

A agree with Walter too. The funeral was actually the very first scene and even though this old guy is immidiately making these racist remarks, I liked him and I couldnt figure out why. But I think it was also because he was a harmless bigot, or not threatening or like I said before, Eastwood portrayed his bigotry as just silly.

The first remark I heard him make surprised me. I looked at my son and he was laughing. It wasn't serious or maybe because he was so open about it we respected his honesty. Theres something to be said for people not being sneaky racist.

I just cant put my finger on it and I didnt want to admit it before because I figured I would get boo...d off the board but I liked Walt almost right off the bat and I can't exactly tell you why.

My mistake I thought I heard or read somewhere that he was some relation to Eastwood. Well, thats even better. I like new writers (with no connections) doing really well. And this one did.

Dan, I too thought Terry was a little harsh but this swooping down on a debate with an outrageous statement is very irritating.

However, I agree with Evie that white versions of minorities (a writer who has no idea what he is talking about) is ALSO very irritating. But I really dont think that was the case with GT or the (Bees) for that matter.

Both writers seem to have a lot of knowledge and respect for the minority in their script. I believe the (Bees) writer was the little girl , wasn't it? And she lived the rest of her childhood with the Boatright sisters didn't she? I mean goodgrief what better authority and respect can you get than that?

I personally don't have a problem with one race writing about another as long as it comes from some (real place) which I truly think both of these did. So, Evie please don't discourage writers writing about other races. Your doing it yourself, remember?

Congrats. Stephen and Irin.

OMG. Whatever!

I entered right before the deadline but I just received an email and message from them on WAB. **************** Congratulations, your project is an official selection to the 2009 Cinema City International Film Festival. We appreciate your consideration of our festival as a platform to share your work. We hope you can attend the festival and enjoy the free screenings, special events and mixers. **************** I hate to sound stupid (I know, I know) but what exactly does this mean? Ive never received a message like this before. It doesn't sound like Im a finalist again. But it kind of sounds good, doesn't it?

Ok, but what does it mean Paula? They're going to read a part of our scripts at the festival or something? Or does it mean something else? I don't understand.

Oh. Daggumit. I don't wanna go to Hollywood. I just want'em to read my script. Oh well, maybe next time. Thanks Paula and Irin and congratulations on "maybe" getting farther in the finals. This does look like a really good one though. If I went to any, I'd go to it.

I was late entering this contest last time too. And just like this time they had their finalist list up before the deadline had passed and they had finished reading all of the scripts. So my name along with the Langlais Bros and some others went up on their finalist list late.

Anyway, I didnt get any farther than the finalist list before and I definitely didnt receive an email like this stating "Official selection". So I just thought maybe this was something extra special that I didn't know about. But, I guess we will find out soon enough.

Goodness, look at all the M-byters. Congrats all.

Evie, I think Ron's had a lot of practice. I find one of the hardest things to do is cut out the garbage and find the shortest way to describe the same thing. So don't despair it's not that easy. For most of us. You'll get the hang of it.

Congrats. Stephen

Yes, yes, yes. But... when you are trying to tell a realistic "type" story like I believe James M was talking about in the first place, you lose credibilty when you make mistakes about facts. Its obviously a well known fact that there are no sheriffs in Alaska so the writer looks stupid by saying there are.

See? The realistic factor is gone. If its suppose to be a "realistic type" story then you have to be careful about little things like that or your audience doesn't like it. I believe thats one of the reasons so many people say "write about what you know".

It is a good article. And obviously explains why NEW writers (good or bad) who don't live in Hollywood, have such a hard time just getting READ, let alone anything else. Producers, agents, etc have had too many bad experiences like this, so they think we're ALL the same.

If your're getting a second oppinion Thomas, try my SCRIPTMENTORS. James Bruno and Elizabeth Stevens by the way. They've sold many scripts and work as directors, producers etc. Check them out on IMBD.

I just cant seem to get anyone on this board to listen to me about them. I like them very much. But....I dont use any one exclusively. I pretty much never use the same one twice, except them.

Sorry, its Brunner not Bruno. I just really like that name Bruno and always want to call him that.

OK, OK, Bruner not Brunner. Well, you all know I can't spell. Why should I disappoint you. And yes Ron, Im doing it again.

Actually, Terry does have a point because my SCRIPTMENTORS are $180.00 just for coverage. But I guess it all depends on what you're looking for. I did want someone who actually sold scripts in the first place to actually find out wether or not I had a sellable one. I mean I think there can be really good scripts out there but theyre not sellable either because their idea (or close to) has (BEEN DONE) a million times or it just is not something that sells.

I think Dan has a point too that some coverage readers take advantage and encourage (NON SELLABLE) scripts to make a profit. They basically convince you that they can help you make your script unique and or sellable which I personally dont think is something you learn. Technique, industry standard etc etc you can learn but NOT uniqueness. If you learn uniqueness from some one then its not unique now is it?

But anyway that is why I always say , ALWAYS use different coverage readers, analysis or mentors and don't get hung up on just one. And TRY my SCRIPTMENTORS. Theyre very different from most that everyone talks about on this board. And they ARE sucessful writers, DAN.

So, let me get this straight Ron. The guy that wrote "History of Violence" is the same one the writer of "I don't want to read your fucking script" is talking about?

Well, thats interesting. I just happen to see THAT movie for the first time Yesterday and while I could say it was "OK" I certainly wouldn't say (the writer of it) is an authority on "great writing". I mean good grief it was about "the mob" and getting one of their underlings back. Ummm....how many times have we seen THAT? I mean ok there was a little bit of a twist to it . The underling ran away to the midwest (although I thought that was realistic it definitely wasnt all THAT clever) to lose his gangster idenity and become a simple farmer. And the movie started off not letting us know that this little quiet small town guy with a family had "a past". But come on, it was not "Great writing".

I adore Viggo Mortensen and Ed Harris, which is actually the only reason I picked the movie up (in the 2 for a dollar section by the way). And I can maybe even say the directing was really good. But the story? (plot, dialogue, beginning, ending etc etc) was not GREAT. Not like other script/writers we have talked about on the board.

So, I guess I just think this guy has a lot of nerve and I doubt very much that I would be bent out of shape if HE didn't want to read my " fucking" script.

And one more thing.

I believe the " I dont want to read your fucking script" was directed at the common practice in Hollywood of friends of friends slipping well known producers, writers etc. a script and why he feels THAT practice should stop.

Which I MOST DEFINITELY agree with because it obviously DOESNT pertain to any of us. We dont know any one in Hollywood remember? And I feel THAT common practice is part of why NEW writers like us cant get in. Its because of the nepotism system in Hollywood has gummed up the works. If they just stop spending all of their time trying to help their talentless friends and family maybe they would have time for NEW writers like us . Many of which DO have GOOD scripts.

Oh, Paula. I thought for sure you went because I havent seen you on the boards since last weds. I was going to ask you. Fact is, since I heard you and Irin were in the finals I basically chalked this one up but I was kind of anxious to hear how you two did.

I dont know about this script you entered but your "Roomies" was the very first excerpt I read on this board when I came on a little over a year ago and I adored it. I thought it was the funniest thing I ever read. So Im sure you're up there somewhere.

I know Ron, but it sounded like you thought it was directed at ALL new writers out here. Sorry if I misunderstood. I just took it to mean he is tired of dealing with friends of friends, family and aquaintences all trying to use him to sell their script and I was just pointing out that (I think) THAT is a good thing for us (non Hollywood NEW writers) not a bad one. He's my hero. I read that somewhere too.

I mean.....most of US are doing the education, coverage, contests etc etc up through the ranks without using or trying to use any connections, not that we have any, or chasing down producers in the street, all just to get read. So I dont think WE are the ones he directed that article at. And personally Im glad because (I think) there is ENOUGH nepotism going on in the buisness and it hurts US little new writers. See?

And.... Oh my, not Unrecommended (the musical)?

congrats. stephen

Congrats. Robert, Geoff, Irin, Murph, John A and Jean. Goodluck on the next round.

I write dance musicals and I definitely have dance segments in my scripts that take more than 4 lines. So what I do is simply break it up = 4 lines > next paragraph 4 lines > next paragraph.

Although I do try really hard to keep the dance segments down to just 4 lines. But those are the only action segments in my scripts that I will break the rule. Otherwise I stick to it.

Dan, I wouldn't call any and every non-wga mentor out there a scam artist. I mean obviously when their clients win and place highly in ALL of the contests (contantly) they're being taught something VERY right.

So I think you need to re-evaluate your "personal oppionion" a little. I mean , these contests are really important to us out here just trying to find a way to get our foot in the door. So learning what it takes to win those contests is pretty important to us NON HOLLYWOOD residents.

Like I said before, I do think any new writer should (at least once) try a SCRIPTMENTOR (sorry, couldn't resist the plugging again) that is a sucessful and working writer themselves, but I think the others are important too and they're not necessarily "scam artists".

Lee, what is that guy talking about? Disney makes boo coos bucks on "NICE FILMS".

I agree with Mike, you have to always write what you are and what you know. And the only films I ever pay to watch are "NICE ONES".

So, hang in there and check out Stephen Hoovers 10 steps on the MISTAKES thread. It was pretty encouraging for me to see everyone else going through all the same irritations and frustrations. We all have to just be patient and "stay focused".

Ok so, the reason they said my concept was great but the premise was weak was because my title "Looking for a Man with a Corvette" is not really what my script is about.

And obviously either they didnt like what my script was REALLY about ( as well as the title that is) or they didn't see the connection between the title and the story. So I need to develop (the connection better).

However, I think there are a lot of great titles out there that (to this day) I personally don't know what their connection to the story was. For example:

Lion in Winter Gone with the Wind One flew over the cookoos(sorry spelling) nest Inherit the Wind To Kill a Mockingbird Clockwork Orange Man in the Moon Cat on a hot tin roof Street car named Desire

So I don't know why they're picking on me. I thought it was good to have a great title. But I guess (Not) if the audience cant figure out the connection?

Thats a bunch of garbage. Because the above movies were pretty much ALL award winners and you can't tell me every one understood the connection between the title and their stories.

But OK, Ill work on it.

Sorry, I always forget the break when listing.

Ok so, the reason they said my concept was great but the premise was weak was because my title "Looking for a Man with a Corvette" is not really what my script is about.

And obviously either they didnt like what my script was REALLY about ( as well as the title that is) or they didn't see the connection between the title and the story. So I need to develop (the connection better).

However, I think there are a lot of great titles out there that (to this day) I personally don't know what their connection to the story was. For example:

Lion in Winter

Gone with the Wind

One flew over the cookoos(sorry spelling) nest

Inherit the Wind

To Kill a Mockingbird

Clockwork Orange

Man in the Moon

Cat on a hot tin roof

Street car named Desire

So I don't know why they're picking on me. I thought it was good to have a great title. But I guess (Not) if the audience cant figure out the connection?

Thats a bunch of garbage. Because the above movies were pretty much ALL award winners and you can't tell me every one understood the connection between the title and their stories.

But OK, Ill work on it.

Congrats. John A. You are telling a wonderful story. Hopefully, Cynosure will find it a Home. Good luck.

Dan, they BOTH gave good information so buzz off.

Ron, you're right and if I could write my story as a book first I would but its a dance musical so I don't think it would work very well.

And there are a few new ones (Twilight and New Monn) but again you're right. The trend seems to be that they were all books first so they don't change the title for the movie. But in general they want us to clearly describe our story with the title.

How boring.

Joseph , that was so wonderful. I knew some of them> Gone with the wind and Cuckoos nest of course but some of them I didn't. At one time I knew Mockingbirds and Lion in Winters, but I forgot. Thank you so much.

Congrats. John, Jesse and Saragh.

Along the lines of Paula's point, I read somewhere that most of these contests, even though do pick extremely good scripts they are not necessarily good market scripts. So Im wondering if that hasnt been part of the problem also. That the contests need to focus on good scripts that " would in fact sell and .....be big box office draws".

Surely by now they know the difference. That way producers would be more receptive to "buying" contest winners. I mean good grief" selling your script" is suppose to be the focus of ALL the contests and their reputation SHOULD hinge on it for both writers and producers.

So something needs to change. We shouldnt have to be asking each other which contests produce the most reads because they should ALL be doing that. And if a producer asks to read your script he should be awfully close to buying it. And if he doesnt ...then something wrong...... with the script. And it should have been weeded out or the problem pointed out to the writer a long time ago.

and ... I read somewhere on this board that Producers these days are a bunch of gutless idiots that wouldnt reconize a good sellable script if they sat on one. So , THAT could be it, too.

Stephen, I agree. I just can't imagine any situation where if ANYONE (except porno, maybe) who was interested in my script I would turn them down. I mean good grief , make do. Theres alway some way to get around something to get your foot in the door.

However, I disagree that contests don't have a responsibilty to get you reads if you're in the winners circle. They all advertise that , that is what they will do for you if you win. So they ALL should be doing it. And we shouldn't have to be trying to figure out who does that the best. If they say they do it then they should do it.

Now I agree that if the producer wants you to change something etc etc and you dont want to do it. Thats you're problem and you shouldnt be so picky because if you just get your foot in the door , you can do what you really want to later.

But it just didnt look to me like THAT is the trend. It seems to me that for some reason contests winners just arn't getting sold as much as they should and I dont think writers being picky is the main problem. It sounds to me like not getting reads or Producers not liking what they read for some reason. I don't know, how many times have you winners been read by producers? And if a lot, what did they say was the reason they didn't buy your script? Or did they?

Oh that would be wonderful, Stephen. Its really encouraging for us newer writers when we hear wins turn into reads and reads turn into sells. Its kind of depressing to constantly hear all of this "yeah I won but no one contacted me stuff". Thank you.

I think contests can also be a pretty good gage to see if all of your REWRITES, coverage, classes and more REWITES are paying off and heading your script in the right direction.

Last year I started entering contests about 10 and only placed in 3. This year I entered another 10 (so far) and placed in 9. So I think I can safely say my script is getting better and headed in the right direction.

I read somewhere that the key to a really good script is rewrite, rewrite , rewrite. I mean Ok you could have a really good concept, theme, petunia or whatever you want to call it. Sorry Joseph I couldnt help quoting you. But I think Im learning that thats just a small part of it.

Ok , so now tell us how it goes. Page has got to get you reads. Oh yeah, Congrats. for GOLD in the Thriller Category. Please , please , please keep us posted.

Stephen, really the latest version? That is marvelous. I mean good grief a script could change tremendously in what, a month? And all for the better. I am so excited for you.

Oh Stephen that is so great! And I should say, scratch that comment , goodness. Hey, would it be possible at some time to tell us what production companys? I mean I know, probably not now . But, maybe some time?

Im sorry, I know most of you don't care about musical remakes sucess or disaster, but I keep track of these things.

As long as Hollywood can go to an OLD musical or dance musical and make a lot of money they sure in the heck arn't going to look for me. So this is kind of important for me.

One down , 3 to go (Footloose, Dirty Dancing and Girls just want to have fun).

Highschool musical was NOT the only reason they are remaking branded products. Musicals ARE hot right not. MAYBE in general they have a small audience, but not right now because of other BIG recent hits like Step up, Mamma Mia, Hairspray and dont forget the sucess of the song and dance shows on TV. They pretty much rule the Neilson (spelling) ratings.

Anyway, I think the reason they are hot right now, in say the last 4 years has been for the same reason other somewhat unrealistic type movies like YOUR TOY PRODUCT movies are hot. Economic and polictical times are bad. People really like to escape in times like these.

However, remakes in general do not do well and Im sure they know that but they are doing them anyway? Dont you think that is probably because musicals ARE really HOT right now? And they are afraid to look for NEW ones. Im just saying I think my chances, peddling a NEW one, are better if the remakes do not do well.

And....they are doing remakes because they are afraid to try new ones with new writers. I just have to be patient, keep rewriting, getting coverage, entering contests until I finally get a break. I dont plan to get worried about my plan unless a BRAND NEW musical comes out and doesnt do well.

Yes, Ron but if they bomb at remakes they will probably be more open to New musicals. I mean IF of course ALL of these people keep watching ALL of these singing and dance shows on TV. I mean good grief there is only so many dance reality and remakes of musicals you can do before DUH you have to try a NEW musical out there. Supply and Demand remember?

Oh yeah, and I heard the reason this remake is not doing well was because they made it PG instead of R like I believe the first one was. So, it seems more like High school musical than FAME.

But I dont think thats the reason. I think its simply because its a remake and its a really worn out dance story. I mean good grrief Step Up is about a school of the Arts too. Not all of us dancers went to a " dance conservatory" and their are a lot of dancers out here with unique stories so duh, how bout trying a new one. That ones really old and tiresome.

Good grief musical remakes do not do well. Did any of you happen to see the Music Man remake? It was terrible. The only one I can think of that did well was Hairspray. So Actually that ONE was probably the reason they are doing it.

Sure sequels do well or OK but NOT remakes. There is a big difference. So I guess I never really understood why Hollywood leans towards REMAKES instead of new ones from cheap little new writers.

I saw that one because the kids wanted to. And I think you're right. I kept wondering back and forth from Zombies to Fame and The ladder had 3 people in it whereas the former was packed. Ok well Ill work on Zombies "the musical". Yeah right.

But I dont think you're right about producers giving up on musicals just because the Fame remake did not do as well as the new ones did. TV is busting with proof that audiences young and old loves singing and dancing right now.

Patrick, I understand that. But what's the old saying? No guts , no glory.

Stephen, This isnt a passion project for me its what I know (music and dance that is). I started script writing when I saw that (what I know) was popular again. Thats all.

Paula, I dont have a problem with my script going MOTW.

James, Thank you. And the most distinct thing about my scripts (as compared to everyone elses on the board) is that they ARE dance musicals. I dont think there's any one else on the board writing a dance musical. So I magnify it in my logline... as much as I can. Because ITS what sets me apart from the crowd.

I have a detailed outline of my script in my synopsis so dont worry. If someone wants to know what my DANCE MUSICAL is a bout (besides dancing) they can read the synopsis or my 10 page excerpt.

Patrick, he sounds perfect to me. I've been looking for new insight like that on my script. If you can't give me info on him on the board . Please email me. Thank you.

Congrats. Irin, Robert, Joseph and Stephen.

Cat,

Thank you and is that true about NYC? I mean, Ive already written one of my dance musicals in stage play format and I definitely don't mind calling long distance.

Is it possible you could give me a list of these theatres looking for new musicals in NYC, because I wouldn't have a clue where to start.

Well, no wonder Hollywood is chucking out such garbage on television these days. The only good thing (and most popular by the way) are the dance reality shows and I know someone in their 20's DIDN'T come up with those two.

Nygel Lithcoe did one and hes a 60 something British ex-dancer. The other was a copy from an England and Austrailia show and Im pretty sure that one was thought up by an old ballroom dancer .

There is a lot of old stuff back in style these days and the fusing of young and old seems to very sucessful. So Hollywood should really get with it if they don't want to be totally taken over by foreigners.

And back to the topic of this thread. Shephen, I think YOU should be able to tell us pretty soon how valuable script contest winning is. But obviously even if all you ever get is a lot of reads, that sounds pretty valuable to me. It is almost impossible to get a request to read your script any other way. Isn't it?

I have had my script listed here and on Inktip for almost two years now and I have not received one request to read my whole script. So it seems to me my only hope is to eventually get in a winners circle somewhere.

So again, YES I think there is definitely value from script writing contests. Just please let us know how many reads you end up getting.

Im so excited for you.

Ok, I understand the TV advertizing etc. But good grief the absolute last age I would ever want to do over is 15-25 because it was the studpidest most unproductive time of my life so surely producers etc don't consider WRITERS in that age group better than older ones.

I mean, maybe as developers, producers , editors etc but not the writers themselves. I could edit things at that age but having any where near the knowledge and imagination that I do now? Don't be ridiculous.

Someone mentioned to me that I shouldnt tell how much dance and music formal training I have on my Resume because it hints at how OLD I am. I thought , well duh, I wouldnt be writing if I didnt have the knowledge and experience to do it. I thought it was silly but from what I keep hearing on this board, I guess it isnt?

I mean, Im not writing about teens in this day and age , Im writing about them in the 90's and the 60's so IM pretty sure Im pretty acurate about how they acted so whats the big deal if Im not "hip". But if it is then they can make it "hip". What ever!

How many writers on this board are under 30?

Dan, You have made your point (that there are scam artist in the script mentoring buisness) and we ALL listened.

But I really think you're losing ground and getting pretty out landish with your attacks right now. And theres no need for it. We heard you and I think we are all on our guard now. But your credibility is sinking fast so I would cool it if I were you.

Oh good Terry, you're back. Where have you been? Well, anyway you're exactly the person I want to ask this because if I remember correctly you're the one that said if something doesn't ring true to you don't use it.

Well, I was told I use too big of words. For example, I said Pargonage instead of Church house. Which actually is not the same thing but any way is that true? I mean is it better to write something like dirty little farm (which actually is also not the same thing) than squalid little farm?

Too BIG of words? I don't really use THAT many. But really, is that a no no?

Also, I was told I have too many characters in my script. I have 6 . I mean , I know that they are all talking a lot in my first few scenes. They're all gathered in the church waiting for a wedding to start. But 6 is really too many?

And lastly, too much dialogue versus action. Again, Im confused because I thought more white on your page is best. And the last coverage report I received said just the opposite. I had too much action (my dance routines take up a lot) and not enough dialogue. These things in general, just don't seem right to me but if they are Im sure you will know.

congrats. Stephen , Hows the Page reads coming?

Stephen,

Please don't leave the board. Even if you can't enter contests next year. It really helps us to hear how everything works and no one sticks around to tell us. So please don't go.

Margaret,

It sounds like you're the one James was talking about. If you are, please tell us what really happened. There are a lot of middle aged female new writers on this board and if we don't stand a chance, or if there is something we can do please let us know.

Thank you , so much.

Stephen , that's wonderful. So what's the total count now?

James, I don't have to restructure my dance musicals. They are already Rom-Coms. And the themes are all about boy meets girl, boy loses girl , but gets girl. LOL. They just dance together a lot too.

Now let me see, a rom-com with dancing in it or without. They can take it out if they want. Most of the work I do on it is to make it funnier. Dancing comes easy for me so I don't have to work on that part so much. I personally thought the dancing just made it better. But hey, what do I know.....

And, if Paula's 19 , I'm 21.

Bobbette,

I think I could write for the "target audience" myself too, if I wanted to. Besides my own experiences, which I was quite the tom boy growing up, too, I have a 25 year old only son who was college drafted for basketball and football. So I think I could probably do it.

I just wonder why that's the target audience though. I mean I think the female group could actually be a bigger group if they would just come up with something they like. And all the women I know, young and old all pretty much like the same things, GOOD MOVIES. But ok yeah mostly with romance or romantic comedy in them. But I think The KEY is GOOD . Not trash. OK?

GOOD in the past year

-------

Mamma Mia

Taken

Grand Torino

Slumdog Millionaire

The Proposal

Twilight

TRASH

----------

Duplicity

The Ugly Truth

FAME

Good Luck Chuck

A Dance Flick

Couples Retreat

He's just not that into you

I do like romantic comedy but I don't think there have been A LOT of really good ones lately. Because OK, lets start a fight. I don't like most romances or romantic comedies written by men and thats mostly whos writing them these days. And in general. They suck. The REALLY good ones are written by women.

oh, oh, oh, More trash

Sex in the City

Go idea James, as always. Thank you.

And I know its getting great reviews and box office. But its not quite as good as Blair Witch Project. Which I thought was the scariest movie I ever saw in my life. And before that, when I was young I the thought The Haunted with Julie Harris was the scariest.

I think it was because of everything WE were hearing but not seeing that made them so intense . Even at the end of both of them you still were not sure what happened. I mean of course you suspected but you still didn't know for sure.

It is a very effective thriller to use peoples daily fears such as getting lost in a forest or the noises in a house to create a thriller. And even though a lot thrillers do a good job of building up, like this one did, I really think the key is to leaving us hanging too.

I will never forget , In Blair witch project, how we just didn't hear her voice any more when she was in that dark cellar and then the camera dropped. The END. SCARY AS YOU KNOW WHAT!

Stephen, what are you talking about? It made 80m worldwide with just a 30m budget. I mean box office hit wise I guess it wasn't. But goodgrief thats as good as those monster budget action films do. Heck they seem to be happy if they just double the 200m that they put into them let alone almost triple. So, I wouldnt really say it didn't do so well.

Im just not really into the whole demon posession thing. I refused to watch the Exorsist. Then of course my sister took me to see Alien and I had to walk out. I just cannot handle things like that. Of course I have since gotten use to it but its still not easy for me and I don't mean because they are exceptionally scarey . They're not, theyre just gross.

There is a very big difference between scarey and gross by the way, everybody.

Yes, you're right Blair witch and...Paranormal are crummy movies. I was just pointing out that it was really scarey. Wheras Paranormal could be if they were more secretive about the ending.

Transformers 2, like 1 is the most expensive piece of crap I've ever seen. Its really hard to Imagine the guy that did Dual is doing things like this now. Dual I believe was his very first and very cheap. But it was fantastic. And you never once saw any more of the cowboy semi driver than his boots.

Another movie where sound effects ruled. They constantly had this cross between the sound of spurs and the semi engine in the background. I liked it. Isnt it funny how so many of the great ones are low budget?

*SPOILER*

I think a more effective ending for Paramormal activity would have been to just not show her again. I mean, every thing else is fine . The sreaming downstairs, then the boyfriend screaming etc. Even the silence then the footsteps back up to the bedroom.

But then I think they should have just thrown the camera out the window. Suggesting that the demon had killed both of them then destroyed the camera. The End. They could then just say neither body was ever found. Just this tape. Or that they did find the bodies and it simply looked like the boyfriend had killed his girlfriend then himself. Nothing unusual, except....

My GOODNESS, I guess it beat Saw VI at the box office this weekend. I actually think that is so great because I prefer THIS type of thriller to THAT. Not to mention, how low budget and simple it was. It truely seems to proove less is BEST.

It's an incredibly romantic but weepy romance about Jonathan Keats and the girl next door. He died when he was 25.

I believe the screenplay or the book was written by a woman . But actually I might have known that anyway because women and men write romances and romantic comedy very differently. I thought it was wonderful.

It seems to be in my world , except for my wonderful Scriptmentors, of course. But any one and every one else I've used, is. Even the script readers in contests that Ive entered and didn't even pay for. I still get a lot of attitude. I mean it can range from Blatant insults to minor sarcasm but every single one seems to review my script with a definite attitude.

Is this normal or just MY scripts?

Mike, My script is only 87 pages. Its a musical with 14 musical routines so I made it short enough to allow for that. I have been writing for over 3 years now and had one of my scripts through about 15 different script readers, so Im pretty sure I have all the formating and script writing formalities down. I don't think that its hard for them to read any more but they are still pretty rude. They dont seem to be getting less rude, they seem to be getting more.

Oddly enough only one of the 15 is actually a wga, signatory, producer director, writer and they were the most encouraging of the bunch and gave me great scores.

Irin, I think Im pretty good about taking critism. I pretty much make the changes no matter how nasty they are recommended. Its just that now Im getting very conflicting advise and still in a very rude way.

My question was, how often do the rest of you get this. I have in fact received good scores on some that were very rude to me so I dont think that follows either way.

Mike actually clued me to something that I was curious about. He said if the scripts are bad and........they already have stars attached and an attitude themselves he is not as nice to them. So, I can take it that readers can do have attitudes amd obviously, for some reason mine is rubbing most of them the wrong way.

I mean, according to our beloved Mr Gomez, most of these non wga script readers are "scam artists" and they just encourage us new writers (good or bad) to line their pockets.

Well, I think I can safely say no ones trying to encourage me or scam me. As a matter of fact it seems more like they're just trying to get rid of me.

Anyway, it doesn't sound like most of them are very mean to most of you . So, maybe he is right. they just dont like me. Oh well.

IamdanIam,

I can't just tell these script readers to f---off. Because I think most of them are middleaged , white females and that IS part of my target audience. Actually, ALL females are my target audience. Young , old, black , white and everything in between. It's a mixed race romantic comedy but it should definitely bring in older ones to because it happens in rural Iowa 1995.

My original thought was that any female would look at my script and just adore it because its suppose to be a sweet and romantic story with romantic ballroom dancing. But I was wrong and I have to find out whats REALLY bugging them about it and change it if I can or it just wont work.

Paula, maybe you're right but most of the readers I have had were female.

Everyone,

Mike Mcdonald just did what I thought was the most extrodianary review of my first 10 pages ever. Not, because he said any thing wonderful about my script because he didn't. But it's the way he told me what was wrong.

Instead of telling my first 10 pages were hard to read. He showed me. I have been told before that my first ten pages were hard to understand and hard to figure out what was going on. But it was always just pointing out little things. Personally , I don't think THEY understood what was hard to read themselves. But Mike did and he simply rewrote two of the 10 pages to show me.

By doing this, it makes it ever so much easier for me to understand the "problems" than when readers simply pick out certain things and tell you don't do this and don't do that. Anyway, thank you again, Mike. You have a very unique and "perfect in my mind" teaching style.

So, ok Ron, you were right. But not about the dialogue, he didn't touch that . Because people DO talk naturally in choppy phrases. So there!

Sorry, Ron. But if I recall correctly you have busted me about proper grammer before so I thought this was one of those times.

Anyway, here are just a few of the rude comments because I dont want to give out too many. Spys you know.

Some College English Literature majors think that they have good enough skills to be a Screenwriter. They don't.

Im sure you are capable of writing a good script but this is not one of them.

I think you should go read "Chicago" over and over.

Now, there is a good reason why this Chicago comment offends me. Chicago is not good singing, dancing or music for that matter. What Chicago is is a good example of what Bob Fosse always did best and thats make non singers-dancers with bad music LOOK VERY GOOD. His choreography was fantastic, as usual.

But thats not in any script. If I actually wrote the choreography to the dance routines I would really get reemed. The editing and Cinematography was also great. But I dont know any dancer-singer who would call Chicago the best musical choice for learning purposes. And its just down right insulting to call it good music and danceing.

Rogers and Hammerstein and Cole Porter wrote good music. Bob Fosse did not. I know , I know he didnt write it but it sure seems to sound all the same in all of his musicals. Chorus Line, All that Jazz, Caberet, Chicago, the music sounds all very similar so I assume its all the same writer and not very good.

Also, Biance and Alicia Keyes are good singers dancers. Renea Zellweger and Cat Zeta Jones are not.

I would think more, West side story, Pajama Game (again partially Bob Fosse choreography, by the way) , Dirty Dancing, Footloose (the musical) and more recent ones Take the Lead and High School Musical. All of which I HAVE read by the way.

Great post Joseph.

Congrats. Susan. I was going to enter that one but backed out at the last minute. Good luck.

Script Savvy does give great notes for just, what is it now $50? I would keep using them forever on my one script if they would let me.

But anyway, something else I got from them that I completely forgot about is an agency/management co. list. Have the rest of you gotten this and used it? There seems to be a lot of Management companies on the list that take query letters. Has anybody used the list? And if so how did it go?

This was three different reviewers. They make these kind of remarks usually out of nowhere. The last reader I used barely found any errors in my script at all, then out of the blue told me I shouldn't be wasting my time.

These are not learning comments these are personal attacks. And like I said early, I can't just tell them to get lost because they are my target audience. I guess I just really don't understand.

All Im trying to do is write a musical for non white leading roles. This has never been done. Not in a mostly white musical that is and as far as I can tell most of the best singers-dancers these days are not white so they really should be allowed to be in the leading roles. Especially in musicals.

I mean no one else will write them for us so Im trying to and all I get is non helpful remarks and discouragement and Im getting pretty sick of it.

Martin,

Maybe you're right since reading my first 10 pages with such attitude about musicals (or possibly its something else) you're obviously an expert and I can trust your unbiased oppionion.

And by the was, I said non white. Im 1/8 indian and about 1/16 black (neither of which you would know if I didn't tell you) so I dont think that quite qulifies me as a "sista".

I started out this post by simply asking if coverage reader are rude, in general. I personally don't think they have to be. And writing is a learning process. Possibly I am "bad" at it now but I can learn. The big question is whether or not I have a good idea. I take it you don't think that I do and that your wisdom(which is obviously greater than mine) tells you that I will never be a good enough writer to make it work even it it is. Which duh then why dont they help me.

Thank you. But as I also said, men are not my target audience so I dont really expect you to like it. I had hoped that women would. Are you speaking for women when you say (musicals) the way you did? Because most women I know do like them.

And, I don't recall ever really tearing down script reader. I think you're putting more on me than Ive ever said. This post was simply pointing out that it is my experience that a lot of them are rude to me. Are they to you? Obviously not. How nice for you. You must be a very accomplished writer. Then perhaps I will listen to you.

By the way, do you know an Eric Sentell? You sound a great deal like him and he's been gone a while. I TRULY miss his open and honest oppionions.

Thank you Walter. That sounds like the most honest thing ever. They obviously don't like it and they are a sampling of my audience. Thank you again.

OK, you two. Now that you have both thoroughly depressed the rest of us with how many scripts you have in the semi's, I just want to know one thing. Which is you best?

Because the way I see it, surely they won't let you win in more than one category no matter how many scripts you have entered. So for instance, if Stephen's is "Horror Comic" and Irin's is "The Way it Spins" then even though the Thriller and Drama categories are obviously sewn up, maybe the other three aren't.

So fess up guys, what's your best? Give the rest of us a little hope here.

Just kidding, good luck to both of you, you deserve it. And definitely keep this thread going. It is the best.

Congrats and good luck Robert, T.J, Cheryl, Bobette, John and Nathan, Irin and Shephen ( for their multiple entries).

So far, it looks like they haven't judged by category yet. They said they just put the top scoring ones in the finals no matter what or how many genres they entered. I entered in two categories but action is so long and family is so packed with heavy hitters I probably don't stand a chance. But hey, its great to see so many mbyters in this one.

Sorry if I missed someone, the print is very little. Good luck to every one. This one sounds like good exposure one.

Im in too, but good grief the list is so long. How many entries did they have in this? But hey, the 16th is quickly approaching.

Congrats Cheryl, Dana, Paul, Nathan, Shephen, Nick, and anyone else I missed. And good luck everyone!

Irin, What on earth are you talking about? The whole freaking panel (and their wives or husbands) would have to be corvette owners for me to ever have any hope of beating you two.

Just kidding. Congrats and good luck. But Im pretty sure you don't need it.

Congrats and good luck Noua. Sorry, that I missed you.

Congrats. and good luck Mike.

I watched New Moon and Blindside this past weekend. I liked New Moon, almost as much as the first if for nothing else except the hunky half naked warewolves. But that's the 19 year female in me.

The (older) Christian woman in me says this is just a silly (actually somewhat old fashioned) teen romance and the vampire thing is almost cult like and disturbing. But hey, we have been catering to the boys, that age, for the last 20 year, why not the girls? At least it's not promoting teen sex. Kind of.

Anyway, I adored Blindside. I like true stories and I didn't have a problem at all with a rich white (republican) family adopting a poor black homeless kid. I think it was great, funny (although I know that they emblished quite a bit) and touching. I wish more rich white families adopted homeless black, potential NFL or NBA players. Why not!

Also, I can't wait to see Avatar (the 19 year old in me again) and Invictus.

LOVE YOUR REVIEWS BOBBETTE. PLEASE KEEP IT UP.

The Blind side. The reference is to protecting the Quarter back's blindside. Of course Im sure they feel its a reference to other things in the story too. One of the main functions of the position that Michael Orr plays is protecting the Quarterbacks blind side.

And I just LOVED the way the movie started with all of diagraming and footage of that guy (oh I cant remember his name) who I guess was so good at sacking the Quarter back in the NFL. Which is why Michael's position became so important to recruiters.

Sorry, Im sure all the football fans out there knows his name (which Im not one, but my son plays football so I know a little). Anyway, it tied everything together and it just helped build the action.

And I thought it was so great to see so many GUYS in the theatre for this fairly "family type" movie. Its not really their kind of movie but hey it had a lot of football in it. I personally think thats the way to go these days. Hit every audience possible all in the same movie.

Evie, How about Lake View Terrace, Star Trek, Obsessed, Avatar, Mirrors and Run Fat Boy Run? These are all movies made in the past year starring young, strong attractive black women in mainstream movies. They're not as good or as many as there should be but I think its a start.

Bobette, I think you would really like The Blind side. Also, Invictus looks really good to me. Morgan Freeman is playing Mandella during his first years of presidency and how he wants the South African Rugby team to win the cup (they are a real long shot) thinking that it will unite the country. Matt Damon plays the Rugby star and (I think) his accent is pretty good. Morgans not so much.

"Invictus" is a poem by William Earnest Hemley and Im not quite sure of what the connection with this story is yet but I certainly plan to find out.

Also, I have seen and liked ALL of Tyler Perry's movies. They are funny and he always has a Christian theme. His last one had a lot of music in it so I liked it a lot. But his movies in general are not as good as mainstream ones. YET. But I definitely think he's getting there.

I think part of Perry's problem is he refuses to collaborate so it slows up his progress. But Im sure he'll get there.

I agree with you about Precious. It's like Hollywood feels the only way they can portray black women in mainstream movies is in a very ugly and disturbing light.

But, I THINK, they are finding out that that is no longer true. I HOPE its not, because my scripts are also about very strong, attractive, Christian young black women.

So, are there any strong oppinions about this one? I've been thinking about entering it for my Dec. entry but Ive never tried it before. I seem to remember some comments a while back but I dont remember what they were and I can't seem to find the thread. Thank you.

OK. Ill just wait until January then. I only do one a month. But hey, maybe Ill do two in January since Im not doing December this year. Thank you, John.

I adore Scriptmentors.