Message Board

I would like to repeat John Stewart's original question: Any success stories?

John G

Two questions:

Does an agent represent you or the script? I always thought the former, but everything points to the latter. Query letters to agents are about the same as to prodcos, pushing just one script. And in their listing, agents specify genres. What if you write in two or three genres?

My agent is interested in only one of my scripts. He read a QL about another and didn't even want to see it. And he hasn't asked about the others.

Question 2: If you have an agent, isn't it easier to get another agent than get one if you have none?

JG

Was the guy's name Adam Kline (Ark Productions)?

J

Saz-- I think in the case of the Spec Script Library, it's a case of using all that the law allows, so they end up with something between a logline and a synopsis.

J

I shop around even material he is interested in. Somebody's gotta do it.

Tracy--

http://chaski.com/wwwboards/screenwriters

I enter a LOT of contests, but have never tried Sundance. Maybe it's because I read in Writers Aide about their "insider Hollywood flavor."

That's why Slamdance came into being. Anyway, next year you might consider it. John Green

Joan-- I don't know if this is any help or not, but the movie was THE SULLIVANS, aka THE FIGHTING SULLIVANS. (They also had a destroyer named after them)

Hey, Gurl-- You trying to say the Cynic is Druxy?

You're not off the subject, Tina. You're the only one who's on it.

Acc. to WRITERS AIDE SCREENPLAY CONTEST NEWSLETTER, they are planning their first feature, FIVE KNUCKLE BULLET, written by Lee Alan. They say the purpose of the is to get screenplays to produce, but they haven't found one yet. This, coupled with the fact that they won't tell you who the winners are, makes me VERY suspicious. There are better contests to send to.

BTW, the new editor of WRITERS AIDE seems to be a little on the naive side, since he accepts at face value everything Alan told him. If the head of a contest talks to him, then he thinks the contest is OK. Only when phone calls are not returned, etc., does he tend to blacklist a contest.

Still, I think WA is worth the money, and I think (hope?) the editor will sharpen up.

John

WA does have a list of "shady" contests: Great American Script Search, Conquest Media, Independent Filmmaker's Program, Parkplace Productions Contest, & The Works Development Corp.

They tell you why they think each one is shady.

Undoubdedly, the list should be longer.

Tracy,

Here's what WA says about Great American:

"One of our subscribers won this contest and she says she was given a four-month long runaround before she was actually given her prize money, and only then after many letters and eventually threats of legal action, etc. This person does not think that any of the other winners have gotten their money yet. Therefore, if this contest pops up again, be careful; do yourself a favor: Don't enter."

"High Concept" is a story which can be expressed in one or two sentences, which by themselves will make the hearer want to see the picture.

In other words, it's an idea (logline) for a movie, but an idea which is so fascinating in itself that you don't have to hear plot or character details.

JG

Basically, send the script in care of their agent.

Why don't you contact the songwriter?

HIGH CONCEPT = A logline so compelling that a person will want to see the movie just from hearing it.

Or, "A mother changes places (and bodies) with her high-school daughter for a day." (FREAKY FRIDAY)

The logline doesn't necessarily have to cite another movie.

I just checked it at www.imdb.com and it came right up. It was made in 1972.

PS: Slaughterhouse is one word.

D.G.--

Sounds good. Include me in.

Why 16mm, though? The new super-low budget way to go ($5,000-$10,000) is digital camcorder, then tailor it with a computer. Read all about it in this month's MOVIEMAKER.

John Green

Money will have to rear its ugly head at some point. What kind of budget are you thinking of? Where do we get it? Okay, so you've got a free script, volunteer actor, director, DP, etc., etc. What about film? (This is where the digital camcorder pays off. For one thing, you can shoot a lot more stuff. I grant you, though, the problem is, we don't have a camcorder and we do have a 16mm. Initially that will save money--but what about in the long run? I don't know.

Would you run the completed product on 16mm? How's it look?

At some point, everyone is going to have to kick in, and not just their talent. At the beginning, it might just be film amd lab.

In any case, please check MOVIEMAKER if you already haven't. Tons of info there, plus ads for filmstock, etc. It's the indie's mag.

I agree that if you spend too much time thinking about the difficulties ahead of time, you'll get nothing done. At some point, you'll just have to plunge in--like Napoleon invading Russia (Oops, bad analogy)

So, as D.G. suggests, let's concentrate on the script. How do we go about it? Does everyone with a candidate script just send it to everyone else on the list? And where's the list anyway? We need to "register" ourselves with someone, and then that someone will have to send the list out to everyone else.

I have a 102-page script with basically two locations: 1) an American carnival; 2) a European castle. The castle shouldn't be any problem, since an external establishing shot can be picked up out of stock footage (kind of like clip art). The castle interior could be any room that looks opulent. (Problem: suit of armor, swords as decor)

The carnival would be tougher. At least three or four large tents, costumes, etc.

I'm sharing this, because each of us will have to go over our script and see if there's expensive elements. I admit that mine may not be the ideal candidate for low-budget.

Everybody remember: we can't do high-speed car chases, etc. WE have to pretty much eliminate action-adventure. What we might end up with is a romantic comedy with maybe three or four simple settings. (E.g., street corner, bar, bedroom, car etc. But scenes in cars can be tough to do)

Someone should be script director. Anyone with suggestions for change could then submit them to the script director, whose word would have to be final (Otherwise, the process would drag on forever)

But first, of course, we would have to vote. Next step: devising a mechanism for the submission of scripts.

Carpe diem!

John

P.S.

I second Crystal's idea of everyone kicking in $100 at some point after the script has been decided on and before we begin principal photography (Doesn't that sound professional!)

Also, locations. Where does everyone live? I live near Philly, but am willing to admit that the L.A. area might be best for most of the action, because of the availability of so many labs and ancillary services. We have them too, but not in as great an abundance.

I belong to a screenwriters group here, and I know I can get a couple of people to help out. One guy has a 16mm (I think, or it might be a Super 8). For intrerior shots--and even many exterior--it won't matter too much where they're shot--Hollywood CA, Hollywood FLA or Betzwood PA. (BTW, before WWI, Betzwood was the center of the U.S. motion pic industry. Couple of studios, etc. Then for tax reasons or something like that, everyone headed out to CA)

P.S.

I second Crystal's idea of everyone kicking in $100 at some point after the script has been decided on and before we begin principal photography (Doesn't that sound professional!)

Also, locations. Where does everyone live? I live near Philly, but am willing to admit that the L.A. area might be best for most of the action, because of the availability of so many labs and ancillary services. We have them too, but not in as great an abundance.

I belong to a screenwriters group here, and I know I can get a couple of people to help out. One guy has a 16mm (I think, or it might be a Super 8). For intrerior shots--and even many exterior--it won't matter too much where they're shot--Hollywood CA, Hollywood FLA or Betzwood PA. (BTW, before WWI, Betzwood was the center of the U.S. motion pic industry. Couple of studios, etc. Then for tax reasons or something like that, everyone headed out to CA)

It looks like we could already have out male and female leads--Benjamin and Crystal! (Okay, maybe I'm being a little premature, but at least they've done some acting)

I forgot to mention: my script is a vampire comedy.

I, for one, have no desire to direct, but am willing to help out in any way that my limited abilities permit.

I saw Jim Jarmusch's DOWN BY LAW last night (or most of it). The acting is terrible--except for maybe Ellen Barkin. The pace really drags. And this is an indie classic!

I think we can do better.

John-- My nose wouldn't be out of joint if my script wasn't chosen. It was a quarter-finalist in the Maui competition (about 100 out of 600, I think). But there may be semi-finalists or finalist out there. Or quarter-finalists in the Nicholl. And anyway, contest finishing is not our main criterion. It''s whether we as a group feel right about it, and, of course, whether it's low-budget

It might not be easy to find a script that fits all the criteria. One very low-budget script that comes to mind (less than $30,000) is CARNIVAL OF SOULS. It's a minor cult classic, and is, I think, a neat film (much better, I think, than DOWN BY LAW). CARNIVAL OF SOULS is a supernatural story about a girl who's dead and doesn't know it. Intriguing concept.

Your idea of a group effort would be very, very difficult to implement, I think. Even a two-person writing team has problems.

Like I said before, we'll probably end up with a love story or romantic comedy--or maybe a supernatural thriller, if there were no F/X. The ghost who looks like a real, living person can be very effective.

Anyway, glad you're interested. Now we've got to get organized.

John

Hey, D.G.!

You and I are the only two who have posted author profiles. Don't you think it would help if others did?

Like John, I could travel--3 or 4 days at a time, anyway.

Pay no attention to Stu. He's just a bitter Canadian shivering up there in his parka. (Actually, he's been produced and has written some kick-ass screenplays)

But we're not talking about collaborating on a script anyway, are we?

It might help if people would post their profiles. Frederick has asked that we do this anyway.

Frederick-- Copngratulations on your flashy new look!

Reminder: to post profile, click on Author's Profile.

I second what Didi says. IF the actor has his own prodco, send it there. I once got Harvey Keitel (Goatsingers Prods.) to read a script of mine this way. Alas, he passed.

Very good books--but what about McKee's STORY? This seems to me to offer more substance that any other screenwriting book I've read.

Didi-- Point of info: If they say your script "made me laugh, made me cry, boy was I surpsised, couldn't put it down, etc."--what more do they want?

Were they looking for another genre--or what?

Inquiring minds want to know.

J

D.G.-- Sounds good. But down to practicalities--Are we setting a deadline of Jan 1 for submission of scripts? And to whom are they submitted--to you? Who will be the reading/judging group? SUGGESTION: Make the reading/judging group three or four people who have not submitted scripts.

Once we have a judging group, we could send the scripts to you, then you could repro them and send them to the group. They would be coming in over months.

So shall we say a deadline of Jan1? This would give time for anyone w/o a low-budget script to maybe write one.

Break a leg.

J

Sara-- D.G. started this. Step #1: We're looking for an ultra-low-budget script to produce ourselves. D.G. has a 16mm and has (I think) a crew and experience making films (not features).

Of course, we have a few things to iron out yet--like the logistics of the fact that people live all over the country.

Crystal-- There are producers who will option your high-concept logline. You don't need a script. They will work with you on the script. Two such produceres are Adam Kline (Ark Pics) and Robert Kosberg. Did your friend send to one of these?

You're right about any kick-ass idea you might have--particularly since you can't copyright ideas--only treatments or completed scripts. Play them close to the vest.

John

I agree with Crystal but would suggest a 2-page synopsis rather than just a logline. You then get a much better idea. And, like loglines, they can be E-mailed. (so can scripts, if you want to go to the trouble. I've exchanged script critiques with three people via E-Mail)

How do we E-Mail you? You didn't submit a profile.

Thanx.

Emily-- Would an E-Mail reply be okay? (For me, at least, it would be faster.

If so, would you kindly post your address?

Thank you,

John

E: johng2323@sprynet.com

PLEASE--and this is not addressed to Tracy, because a LOT of people do it. Could we spell SITE right? SITE means "location." SIGHT means "vision." And neither is to be confused with CITE--to refer to, or to quote.

A. Pedant

Trace-- No, it REALLY was not directed to you. There are a LOT of people who do it. I know that I make my share of mistakes. I tend to transpose letters, for intsance (
And sometimes I don't even proofread.

Your fello sinner,

J

You must have a kick-ass query letter.

Alva,

I just want to reiterate for the third time the advice given above not to send out something that isn't ready. I've got something now that is finally ready--based on professional opinion and on contest readers' opinions. It took umpteen rewrites to get to this point--plus three professional critiques. Many people have read this--wife, friends, pros.

BUT ALAS--I couldn't wait, and last year sent it out when it was just a seven-month's fetus. Now I have probably permanently alienated a number of prodcos and agents. I imagine beside my name in some file in their office is the notation: John Mark Green: This schmuck can't write. Oh, well. It's my own fault.

Of course, that's me. For all I know, your script is perfectly ready, in a state of completion mine will never reach.

BTW: Am I alone in using no scritpwriting software? I rely on WP51's formatting program, and have not found it to be a hardship.

Ta ta,

Old Fart

Normally, you don't need an agent. Only the studios demand that material be submitted by agents.

What prodcos usually buy is completed screenplays. Only rarely would they buy a treatment.

You might try Adam Kline or Robert Kosberg, though.

All I can add is that the HCD (Vol 32) does not list their credits. Their E-Mail is apostlepix@aol com. And, yes, Tom Sellitti is Creative Exec.

PS: Their URL is http://www.celebsites.com/denisleary

Does anyone know anything about the BDR 2000 Contest? Heard anything? Their presentation on this site makes it sound as though the only prize is that you get your script read by their judges! They don't even say anything about feedback. Am I misjudging them?

The American Screenwriters Association, on the other hand, seems to be new and struggling but bona fide. They are an association of local groups. I just applied to join ($25) Their contest is like Wisconsin and some others in that you have to be a member to enter, but if you're not a member, you just enclose an extra $25 and Voila! you're a member. Great recruitment device.

I know the venerable Wisconsin is very good (you get three coverages)--and fairly low-priced. (I think $35 for memgbers. ASA is $25 for member, so a total of $50 for most people.

Anyway check out their website: www.asascreenwriters.com and judge for yourself.

Angelia-- As far as online goes, try www.hollywoodnetwork.com.

There's also a large paperback put out by the Writers Network: The 1998 Annual AGency Guide. (Price around $35, I think). It's very thorough, and tells which agents are receptive to new writers, etc.

Their phone is 800-646-3896.

Good luck!

John

BTW: BTW, you're in the old chicken-and-egg bind. You need an agent to get produced and you need a production to get an agent. With vicious circles like this, it doesn't always matter where you attack. Many people say, start with the prodcos. Most prodcos will read unagented material. The exceptions are the studios and the major others (like Cinemax, etc.). But that still leaves plenty. Do you have the HCD? Phone: 800-815-0503. They list most prodcos and their personnel--plus recent productions. They have a webssite at www.hollyvision.com

I got a response from Harvey Keitel's prodco (Goatsingers) requesting my script--and at that time, I had no agent. A number of others also requested it w/o an agent.

Do you have a kickass query letter? And a world-class script to back it up? (I found out that a good q.l. is not good unless you have the goods to back it up)

Guess who. (Sorry)

9000 Sunset Blvd, #911 West Hollywood CA 90069

PH: 310-887-0900

Thanks, Fred. Another attraction of Wisconsin is that they have a script exchange program, where you do mutual critiques. I've taken advantage of this and got two perceptive critiques. (BTW, you don't have to be a resident)

OH, oh!

Jay-- You didn't post your profile, so I can't E-Mail you. My profile is there, so if you E-Mail me, I have an item of interest.

John Green

Wendy-- I can't help you with CPC, but I might be able to save you a little money. Next time you have a script to send, send it Priority Mail at the P.O.

Priority is $3 for anything up to 2 lbs. MSS are ok.

MUCH cheaper than FedEx, although it might take a dauy longer.

For next day, try Express Mail--about $15--cheaper than FedEx.

JOhn G

But, Tim, if you don't reveal some dissatisfaction with your present agent, then why would you be wanting to change agents?

John G.

Re: "Honorable Mention"--

Dorothy Parker said that "Hollywood is the only place where you can be encouraged to death."

Yolanda-- I would be careful.

1) Are you sure you want an agent in The Big Easy?

2) They are just starting up, and yet you say they are already nasty?

3) I E-mailed them a query which they never deigned to answer. (I should add that I said "I'm sure you don't want a client who can't write any more than I want an agent who can't represent." This may have pissed them off)

Could one of you Californians please advise me whether it is true that an agent that signs you has to get you work--or some kind of action--within 120 days? I've heard this, but don't know whether it's true or not.

Any info would be helpful. (A bonus for me would be if you could cite the relevant statute) Muchas gratias!

John Green

Have you checked out their website?

www.cyclone-entertainment.com

FWIW

Thanks, Rene, it does help. I think I will simply send him a registered letter declaring my wish to end the relationship. (A friend of mine did this). As you say most would honor this.

To my knowledge, he hasnt done lick of work on the script. I keep sending him revisions. He doesn't respond, and I don't think he reads them. Someone told me that he has another business.

Thanks again.

John

I am an antediluvian who has written four screenplays on WP51 -- without macros. I don't find hittin tab keys that much trouble. Don't you still have to hit keys with the progtrams?

Okay, okay -- the one thing I do find a pain in the ass is, when I make a change on one page that causes the text to spill over onto the next, then I have to go thru the whole document and correct the format. I guess the new stuff has some way of eliminating this task? And also eliminating widows and orphans--which I can't get either WP51 or MS Word (which I also have) to do.

Old Fart

His prodco is Other Brothers. Yes, he's one of the good guys.

I've read discussions of E-Mail, but not of FAX. Has anyone had experience with faxing QL's? I notice that most agents and prodcos list FAX numbers (but not E-Mail addresses). I've never faxed, so I don't know.

Is it acceptable, gauche, neutral -- or what? Any experience you have would be appreciated.

John Green

I vote for at least a one-page (about 3 paragraphs) synopsis, which could be a "pitch" or a simple summary -- or a combination.

Should this prove to be onerous for the judges, I doubt that anyone would object to a $10 first-round fee. This might also slightly reduce the second-round fee.

I belong to THE FINAL CUT, the Philadephia area screenwriters group. We are also an affiliate of the American Screenwriters Association, which we just joined. I would recommend other groups' considering this umbrella group. You can find out about it on this site by clicking on Contests and scrolling to ASA.

Anyway, we deal with usually from 10-20 pages of three or four scripts each month. We assign parts and everybody participates in the reading. Then we have a critique session. It seems to work out well

John Green

I am an affiliate member. The only disadvantage (for me, anyway) is that they're LA-based. Their meetings are in LA. But they have other beneficial programs.

Their Carl Sautter Memorial contest is one. One big advantage is that you get extensive feedback (coverage).

John Green

Tim -- You sound like Groucho Marx, who said that he wouldn't belong to any club that would have him as a member.

John Green

Both, I guess, Tim.

No, I think it pays to be wary of these prodcos that cast a wide net. How are theye even going to read all those scripts? And if they do, what's the quality of the reader?

My guess is they might look at the logline, or at most, thumb through the first few pages.

I dunno.

John

John--

For what it's worth, many studios/prodcos will accept submissions ONLY from WGA-Sig agents.

John Green

The last day of spring is June 20. But I think they're just being intentionally vague, since so many times when contests set a definite date, they can't meet it.

Chris--

I think they said the first May.

AbsoluteWrite has Rollins on its Beware list.

Also, in order to get submissions to studios and major prodcos, you need a WGA-Sig agency.

Laz-- Joe was my agent back when he was WGA, and I think I know why he's no longer WGA. He said he was flying to NY to push some scripts, including mine, to the producer Frank Abatemarco. He hit me up for 50 bucks to help defray plane fare. I was less careful then, and I paid it. He got a hundred from a friend of mine. Another friend was also his client. After a few months of inactivity (he didn't even have a computer or fax) we all dropped him. After that, I saw a warning about him in THE NEW YORK SCREENWRITER.

It seems to me that a number of agents are becoming managers. One reason, maybe, is that managers don't have to be WGA-Sig to be legit. (But they do have an organization -- COPM, I think). Also, managers can collect 15% on a sale instead of 10%.

One interesting feature of Joe's contract was that he would only charge me 8% instead of 10%. I don't know why.

If he is willing to rep you for nothing up front, maybe you should give him a try. You would still have to push your own scripts, but you could at least state that you have representation. At the same time, it's not the same thing as having William Morris (Agt) or Brillstein-Grey (Mgr) in your corner.

Ken--

I think your idea is worth a try. You can count me in. I have four scripts.

Are you aware of the American Zoetrope (Coppola) site, where critiques are exchanged?

We writers tend to be a little paranoid, I think, and surround ourselves with armor. But the armor is really dead scar tissue.

Anyway, I hope we can get something going.

John Green

PS: I can't find your Email address.

Ken--

I'm not sure about upbeat endings. I'd have to think about it. Does every movie have to make us a better person?

One of my favorite movies is MISTRESS (DeNiro, Aiello, Wallach, Jean Smart, Robert Wuhl, Jason Alexander). A killer comedy about screenwriting. And the ending is far from upbeat, kind of a downer that levels off.

Have you read Christopher (I forget his last name)'s THE WRITER'S JOURNEY? You sound like you have.

Anyway, I'll Email you and Miriam with info about my scripts, then we can see about arranging an exchange.

John

Daniel--

A Titanic spoof called GIGANTIC is already in production -- at New Line, I think.

So maybe you'd better go with the thriller.

Ken,

I'm going to display my ignorance (no trick for me). Who's Truby?

About your idea -- it's kind of quixotic. I think it's gonna take a lot more than screenwriters to change people. Most people lead fairly humdrum existences. What could be more spirit-killing than eight hours in an office? Just ask my wife, who is there now making enough to support my drone-like existence.

Anyway, what these people want in the way of entertainment is excitement -- pop bands, etc. As far as movies go, Hollywood recognizes that nothing is more exciting than sex and violence.

So tell me, Ken, what would you subsititue that would have the same visceral appeal?

I don't we'll get rid of sex and violence, but we can give them a different twist. For a couple of thousand years, the most popular form of drama has been melodrama (Euripides wrote them), nowadays called Thrillers. Recipe: cardboard characters (good guy vs bad guys); intricate, suspenseful plot; moral simplicity. A recipe that sells. But maybe a different spin could be put on it: maybe comedy, which would distance the pseudo-seriousness of melodrama.

Or real history, which shows that violence creates more problems that it solves. I dunno.

On a side issue, my pet peeve is the excess of SFX, which, like car chases, is the resort of a poor director or storyteller.

End of screed,

John

Chris--

Now call WM and find out which agent handles her.

Miriam--

I didn't see PHANTOM MENACE, but heard it was bad. I'm one of the apparently few who's not a fan of TITANIC either. Maybe because I'm not a DiCaprio fan.

I was curious about MATRIX. Haven't seen it. Did you?

First, my credentials (or lack thereof): I'm an old fogie, who usually prefers the original rather than the remake. Examples: THE HAUNTING: I liked the Claire Bloom-Julie Harris original (and just bought it today for $5). I haven't seen De Bont's remake, but everyone says, Don't, It's just SFX. Same with CARNIVAL OF SOULS orignially made some forty years ago for 30K, and recently remade by Craven I think. Again, I was warned against it.

You might say, Well, why not buy a ticket and judge for yourself? But this is capitulation. Hollywood doesn't give a damn what we think, as long as we buy a ticket. The only thing they consider (I generalize) is the bottom line. SO IF YOU BUY A TICKET TO A MOVIE YOU PRETTY WELL KNOW IS BAD, YOU'VE JUST CAST A VOTE FOR IT, AND YOU'LL GET MORE JUST LIKE IT.

What we need is a little selective boycotting.

I'll fold up my portable soapbox now, and stumble offstage.

John

PS: (Here I go again): Another example of a remake that stunk was THE JACKAL (Original: DAY OF THE JACKAL). The Edward Fox version is a classic thriller. The remake stunk. (Unforutnately, I saw it)

I guess they were thinking, Hey, if it made money once, why not again? Or with a re-remake, maybe, We pulled the wool over they eyes once, let's try it again.

I guess I'll stay away from MATRIX. It just didn't sound like my kind of movie. I also managed to avoid ARMAGEDDON. (But got sucked into that other apocalyptic one with Tia Leone)

Some violence is okay, IMHO, if it's SIGNIFICANT, and not just mindless blowing away of bad guys. An example for me is THE ASPHALT JUNGLE, a classic noir -- excellent even aside from the fact that it introed MM (in a minor role).

I haven't seen the one with Tommy Lee Jones and Samuel L. Jackson as Marine colonels yet, but I understand that the violence is at the beginning of the movie, and the justification for it becomes the central question. (I've heard, though, that the movie has other problems)

I guess what I'm saying is that the violence should be shown as repulsive (THREE KINGS did this), and the good guys should get their share of it. It should not be random -- or overdone. (Same holds true for sex and nudity)

End of sermon (Wake up!)

John

Ashley -- That sounds like the King Arthur Screenwriting Awards. (Check the contest list). They claim to award 1 mil, but that money is to be divided among the top ten finalists. And not paid all at once.

Still not bad, but I'm not sure they always get ten finalists. So the award is really 100K. But I don't think they're having a contest this year.

Ken--

Hear, hear!

Anyway, I agree with most of what you say. I thought FROM DUSK TO DAWN was a truly lousy movie. Take away the SFX, and you're not left with much. My nephew could have written it.

But what's wrong with celebrating a guy like Schindler?

They lined up around the block for AMISTAD? (I thought that's what you wre saying)

Anyway, carry on, man!

Take care,

John

True, Miriam, but let's not forget that classic of classics, THE ASPHALT JUNGLE (check IMDb). Been remade twice (once as BADLANDS). And among its lesser virtues was that it introduced Marilyn Monroe.

John

JJ--

I agree. But if they want to "get into" production, they wouldn't have any credits, would they?

Everybody has to start somewhere.

Unless you mean that the individuals in the company might have credits from another prodco?

JJ--

Could you give us some examples of weird judging?

Thanks,

John

Miriam--

That IS weird! This guy was probably higher than a kite when he read your script. I suspect that more than a few of these kids toke out when they have a pile of scripts to read. Probably think it's cute to do so.

I can't match your story, but I do have one -- I got two feedbacks from Scriptwriters Network Producer's Outreach Program (not exactly a contest, but still). One reviewer hated EVERYTHING about the script -- I mean literally EVERYTHING, down to the format. The other -- you guessed it -- LOVED everything, incl praise for the format. I hasten to add that I think SN's PO is a good program, and I wouldn't hesitate to submit again. If two readers recommend the script, it's read by a third. If he/she also recommends, it's then one of a small minority of scripts that are submitted to a list of prodcos, who will then know that they're not wasting their time reading crap.

A friend of mine submitted a script to American Screenwriters Association and got a review of a brilliant script ( I read it) that was so egregiously stupid that I'm still torn between laughter and rage when I think of it. ASA uses former contest winners as judges.

Every contest advertises that they have some fabled "insiders" or "executives" as judges. But the small print says that these people will read only maybe the top five scripts. The first line of readers (with a couple of exceptions)is likely to be some pimple-faced nincompoop. And this is the great weakness of the contest system.

BTW, I don't think you said what contest this was. I think we owe each other this kind of info.

John

You're right, Miriam, it's a crapshoot.

I shouldn't have criticized the young people who are probably the majority of readers in these contests. After all, the organizers need cheap labor. They're not going to get studio "executives" to read dozens and dozens of scripts. And the only thing the young lack -- through no fault of their own -- is experience. And the way you get experience is by making a lot of mistakes. I've made so many I'm lucky to be alive.

With so many contests, and with impartial critical acumen in such short supply, it really is a crapshoot. And I don't see any remedy.

BTW, your laughable feedback couldn't have been from Santa Fe, could it? Since you scored so high there? And the one experience I had with Wisconsin was mainly good.

To conclude on a positive note -- I've heard a lot of good things about Monterey, but have never entered. I plan to do so this year. It's one of the smaller contest, I think.

John

Hollywood wants something fresh, original, and cutting edge -- as long as it doesn't disturb anyone, and doesn't break the mold of everything that's gone before.

OTOH, it can be said that if you got millions of dollars invested, you don't want to lose your money. You might even want to make some.

So where's that leave us? With the public that buys tickets. They determine the success or failure of a film. You and me. If we buy a ticket to a film we have reason to believe is lousy, we've just voted for that film in the only way that counts. And if there's enough like us, that's what we'll keep getting.

John

Sang--

Well, one was marketability. One of mine scored in the top 20%, but not the top 15%, which is the cutoff point for semi-finalist. (A hand-written note said it was close) The letter said that the negative factor was "viability in today's market."

I hadn't know this was a factor, but then maybe I hadn't read the fine print when I entered the contest.

John

Randy, your point about the ignored market is a good one. The 14-25 age group sometimes seems to be self-selected. They make movies for them, and then say, See, this is the only group who goes to movies. Maybe one reason is that the average "exec" is fairly young him/herself (20's), and the readers are even younger. So you're almost bound to get a tilt toward movies appealing to the young.

It's not quite this simple, but almost.

John

Two added points--

1) I was thinking of movies like THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY and AMERICAN PIE in my diatribe.

2) There's a lot of thoughtful, serious (but no humorless) people around 20. So it's not strictly an age thing.

John

Thanks, Peter.

Dawn: Congratulations! You must have a very strong script to advance to the semis, despite, as you say, its being a period piece.

I don't know why mine failed marketability. It is set in the 1850's, but your success would seem to indicate that that alone is not the reason. Perhaps it was because the protagonist (it's a true story) massacred people for what does not seem to be a justifiable reason.

John

Beverly -- I agree about AMERICAN BEAUTY. Definitely worth seeing; for one thing, there's Kevin Spacey's performance. It's a far cry from teeny crap.

Randy -- What amazes me is that virtually every prodco does what everyone else does. Few seem to have the guts to cut out a niche for themselves. Of course, a lot of them claim to do so, but the differences from everyone else's movies turn out to be infinitesmal.

The result is that 100% of the people get what 50% of the people want.

Doug,

Just wanted to second your opinion that A NIGHT TO REMEMBER is superior to TITANIC. Or, I should say, I liked it a lot better -- which, of course, doesn't make it superior.

And as I recall, NIGHT was black and white, no?

And Clifton Webb was both hero and villain -- not like the melodramatic sappiness of the DiCaprio good guy and the Billy Zane bad guy. That kind of writing may be okay for Marvel Comics, but for a major motion picture????

According to the HAMD, Strong/Marrone reps talent but not writers. Hmmmm.

????

John

Pavel--

The HAMD is the Hollywood Agents and Managers Directory. It's a companion volume to the HCD (Hollywood Creative Directory).

I have no specific criticisms, Peter, but I will say that American Accolades is easily in the top 10% of contests -- and I've entered quite a few. Your posts here on the MB BB, I think, show one reason why you're topnotch.

And this is from a guy who didn't make semi-finalist.

Best,

John

Nantucket was supposed to announce winners June 21, the first day of their June 21-25 Conference. I checked their website today (June 30) and they were still speaking of the conference as an upcoming thing. No winners, no nothing. (Why does it seem so difficult to keep a website up to date?)

Anyway, has anyone heard from Nantucket?

Thanks,

John Green

Anyone know anything about them? They're pushing a screenwriting festival this November 5,6 & 7. If you're "accepted", it costs you $275. They claim great exposure, cuz they push it four months ahead of time to the industry.

If your script(s) is/are not accepted, they refund your money.

I dunno.

Thanks for any info.

John Green

BTW, their website is www.angelciti.com

JG

Thanks, Randy. Maybe I can profit by your experience. You say you gave them only $75, not the full $275? Well, that's something, anyway. Even so, you should watch for your refund, prob about Sept. -- or if accepted, will they bill you for the additonal $200??? Would you go out to watch your staged reading? (about 30 min.)

Anyway, I got a call from this Catherine Katz, and like you say, she pushed the hard sell. I said I'd have to think about it, and she said, Don't take too long. She said I was "qualified" (based only on our phone conversation), and that my scripts -- she said I could send three -- would be judged by a panel of ten.

The company, BTW, has been in LA only two years. This is their second festival there (previously in NY -- but under what name I don't know. AngelCity would seem to fit only LA) -- anyway, this is their FIRST screenwriting festival. Last year it was only filmmakers. So they have no track record.

Anyway, all the best, and I hope that in some way it works out for you. Based on your post, I'm having second thoughts, and prob won't do it. $275 for a 30 min staged reading? I dunno....

John (Lost in the Celluloid Jungle)

Thanks, Donna, for the input. This throws a different light on the whole affair. Randy needn't despair after all!

Now I'm thrown back into a tizzy as to whether to enter or not. I'm retired, and living on that fabled "fixed income" (it's fixed, all right), so have to think carefully about every buck I spend.

John the Mugwump

I've had good luck with Affordable Script Consultants. (They have a webpage, but I don't have it here) And, as I remember, they're under $100.

John Green

Among the smaller contests, BLUE CAT is amazing. TWO screenplays for $20! And the guy calls EACH ENTRANT personally with feedback. How does he do it? I dunno. I think he reads each script himself, for one thing, which would save hiring readers.

BTW, just to show that I'm impartial, both my scripts LOST. And I'm still awaiting my phone call. (I just emailed him)

John Green

$90 is a lot of money to pay to get scammed.

I've gradually been losing respect for contests. Most make a big parade of anonymity, but suppose I'm a reader, and you're my friend. Won't I know the TITLE of your sp? I suspect that the fix is in A LOT.

On top of which, many first-round readers are nincompoops. They have to rely on the cheapest, youngest help for the first round reading -- maybe the most important round, requiring the greatest skill. There's the rub. And then they trumpet the fact that they have those fabled "industry insiders" as readers. Meaning that they read the "top" 3 scripts – after who-knows-how-many better scripts have been eliminated along the way.

I tend to think that most of them are money-making ventures, pure and simple. And there's WAY too many of them. This proliferation tends to demonstrate my point. On top of which, it dilutes what talent is available to do the reading. Unless by now, there has developed a "circuit" for readers, where they can go from one contest to the next.

Am I just a disgruntled loser? Partly, maybe, but not entirely. I came in 4th in last year's ASA contest. Was finalist in two others. Semi- and quarter- numerous times.. Bah, humbug!!

Ebenezer

Mind telling us which agent, D.G.?

Like Miriam, I made the first cut (top 10%) -- what you would call, I guess, the quarter-finals. But did not make the semis.

That's what the letter said.

Miriam and JJ --

I agree with you both. Tho I must say, the 4th place finish hasn't made any discernible diff, let alone the finalist and semis.

Nicholl - Yes, if you're a finalist.

Same with Chesterfield, I guess. (Tho it's been my experience that EVERYONE makes the semis)

And I guess Austin has a certain cachet. Particularly if you're a semi. Their system seems a bit more rigorous than Chesterfield, since only 10% make even the quarters.

Among the smaller contests, I've heard good things about Monterey -- tho I have yet to try it.

And I have to put in word for my favorite -- Blue Cat. To show that I'm unbiased: neither my scripts made it. (One of my friends is one of the top 4)

The neat thing about BC is that it's only $20. So they're not in it for the money. AND you can send TWO scripts for this price! AND you get telephone feedback from the contestmeister -- on his dime!

I don't know how he does it. Maybe it'll go up next year.

You've hit the nail on the head, Miriam. The great virtue of an agent -- PROVIDED HE IS WGA-SIG -- is access. No studio will look at the work of an unagented writer. Nor will many prodcos.

I meant to say also that there may be 15-20 other good contests (And yes, Miriam -- Santa Fe).

But with all of them, the weak link is the first-round readers. These of necessity are the least qualified ones. (Granted, everyone has to go through a learning curve)

I suppose you're right, Ashley, and maybe I'm just being unnecessarily cynical. Probably just a passing mood (Note that I didn't say I would stop entering contests)

And D.G. -- I firmly believe that positive visualization gives you a greater chance of being successful -- in anything. The problem is, how to achieve this blissful state?

D.G. --

I have a copy of CONVERSATONS WITH GOD. Maybe I'll even read it.

The feedback from contests is all over the board, ranging from none to full coverage with helpful suggestions.

Check out the category on this site "Contests That Offer Feedback."

Oh, oh!

Don't do it. (One person's advice)

Jennifer,

I don't see why they would trash it just because of your resume.

Zoje,

Why don't you casually mention in your QL that you are, in fact, Steven Spielberg's niece? Can't hurt.

Seriously, one avenue I've tried with some success is to decide on the actor who you'd like to see play the protagonist in your project, then query that actor's agent? Lists of actors' agents are available online -- as well as from WGA.

I must confess I've never entered Sundance, so I'm not sure what their procedure is. But if it's a script competition, why would you have to have attachments?

On a side note, have you tried to attach anyone? (E-mail me for suggestions -- see my bio)

Robert,

I can't answer definitively, but I know that you can't copyright movie titles. E.g., you could write a script -- or make a movie -- entitled CASABLANCA.

I suspect that the same thing applies to song titles.

Yeah, what was this thread about? I forget.

Hmmm. I hope none of you are driving an Explorer with Firestones...

(Shudder)

I think you're right, Sang, to see that the first round is the weak link in the chain. Mostly volunteer or poorly paid kids, I believe. Not their fault they're kids, but many don't have enough sophistication to discriminate good writing from bad.

And I don't see much that can be done about it. Let's say the average contest gets 500 scripts. And they have 20 readers. That's 25 scripts each to be read in a couple of months.

Not that bad, but remember that most of them are working or going to school full time.

Reading only to page 20? That's okay, maybe, if the first twenty pages are really putrid. And there are a few contests that face this fact by asking you to submit only your first 20 pages in the first round. I think there's a lot to be said for this system. Then there's a decent assurance that the full scripts that arrive for the second round will have some quality to them.

And yes, Miriam, it's discouraging to grow a long gray beard (me, not you) waiting to get results. And it's a particular problem if one is a perpetual reviser, like me. Then the script they're judging may bear little resemblance to the masterpiece in front of you. (No, I can't wait for the masterpiece to emerge before I submit. I'd never submit then)

Online submission would be a BIG help. There's a few that do it -- Greenlight (Matt Damon, etc.), for example.

I guess the reason most don't do it is that they would probably then have to print each one out in several copies, which would then add to their costs. (Tho they could just transfer them electronically to the readers' computers, too). And maybe differing formats would create a problem.

But I expect to see more and more contests accepting online submissions. A few prodcos do now.

Colleen,

Probably the first. But if you do the second, leave the letter to the actor unsealed as a courtesy so the agent can read it.

Steven,

Your hunch is correct, I believe. Everything I've read indicates the superiority of copyright.

Ashley,

"If they got the dough, I'm gonna go."

The point about wannabe produceres is that they DON'T have the dough. That's why they're wannabes.

Ashley,

Yes, that's usually the connotation. Even legit prodcos -- and there's no hard and fast line between legit and wannabe -- can have trouble raising money. They have to interest other prodcos, distribs, talent -- and maybe other financial sources. It ain't easy. Ever notice how many entities are involved in the making of the average movie? A lot of things have to come together simultaneously.

Even if you interest a name actor, it doesn't always mean much. Many actors have scripts they'd like to get made, but can't.

PS: That's the reason for options. A prodco wants to try for, say, three months to assemble a critical mass of interest in the project. And frequently they don't.

I find that I spend more time marketing than I do writing. And even if an actor or prodco gets interested, it's just the beginning of a Sisyphean effort.

A common response (not always) from actors' agents is, How much money do you have attached? And you say -- as Deb Havener points out -- well, I need interest from the actor to raise money. And they say, Well,raise the money and then my actor will be interested.

And you can imagine what happens when you approach the money people.

And as Deb points out, placing high in contests may be a necessary, but hardly a sufficient, method of attracting interest. And also, you have to watch the quality of interest you're attracting.

Cassandra

Joe,

If you want to exchange reviews, go to the American Zoetrope site. I think it's www.americanzoetrope.com.

Good luck!

Dave--

If you go through the contest list on this site, you will see several that offer as a prize the staged reading of your script.

Of course, you have to read the find print as to who will be in the audience.

Well said, Randy. But why do you assume that MM is a liberal?

There, Ashley!

(Someday, maybe?)

What you smell is manure. Back off. Yes, I've had dealings with them, and got about as far as you did. When they started talking about much money to send, I beat a hasty retreat.

Hey, Bonnie -- you came in 2nd and all you got was a screenwriting program?

I had an experience similar to Subee's. I contacted the agent for an actress, and his question was, How much money is attached?

With another script, tho, my partner and I have interest from a name actor, who said we can use his name to push the script. Also interest from a prodco which is pushing it. And from a name director.

This has been the situation for the past few months. What we don't have is interest from somebody with the bucks to get things done -- like a studio or a network. (It's a tough sell -- a period piece)

I've had a screenplay posted there for a few months, but no bites yet.

One thing I noticed about them was that the longer I talked to them, the more their price came down. But it never came within reach.

I've had two SP's posted on WSN for a number of months, and have gotten a couple of contacts that way.

Good advice, Jim. Thanks.

No problem, RJ.

(But didn't Bonita intro the subject of WSN, to which you responded?? They're the ones with the newsletter)

BLAZING SADDLES is already a spoof. You don't want to spoof a spoof, do you? (Just asking).

The classic Westen scene is the duel between the two gunfighters, usually on the main drag, in front of the saloon. This could lend itself to satire -- missing and shooting an old lady in the outhouse, etc, etc.

It's been several months, RJ, but as I recall you have to snailmail them your script. But I don't remember any charges -- but I could be wrong. In any case, they couldn't be exorbitant, or I wouldn't have done it. If there is a charge, it's a one-time one (But maybe only for 6 mos or a year)

Does thier website deal with this?

Gary,

It's very, very tough to get a movie made because of the huge sums of money involved. Few people want to gamble with millions. Even a cheapie indie flic costs hundreds of thousands.

And if they do gamble, they want to go with something that puts the odds on their side, so they go with the tried and true. That is, they use established screenwriters, not newbies.

However, you've got a leg up on most of us here, since you've got published credits, plus an agent. Writing a bestseller is a backdoor way to get a movie made from your story. But it didn't sound like yours were bestsellers. Still, you've got some very positive things to say in a query letter.

One way to go is to craft a brief (one-page) query letter ("pitch") that sets forth only the essentials about your and your story, including a logline (1 o2 sentences setting for your quintessential story). Another way to go is to write the screenplay yourself. There are a ton of books out there on how to do this.

BTW, about your agency -- are they someone who handles mainly books? Maybe you need an agency accustomed to dealing with Hollywood. Check the WGA site for a list of CA agents (www.wga.org) Again, you would have an advantage in interesting one, since you have published credits.

Best of luck,

John

Well, Colleen, since no knowledgeable person seems to be leaping into the breach, I'll put in my inflated two sense (sic). I mean, fools rush in, right?

Right off the top of my pointy little head, I'd say, go ahead. Forge right on with the stuff about Houdini. Like you say, this stuff is pretty much public knowledge, right? And besides, who's to know? (I didn't say that)

And I can say, that if it were me, I'd do it. (Poor argument, I know) Anyway, if worse comes to worst, I bake some good cookies, and would send you all you could eat in stir.

John

Manny,

I think $90 is too much for ANY contest, particularly considering the meager prizes they give. The best contest, the Nicholl, charges only $30, but isn't accepting screenplays yet.

Why don't you look around the contest list on this site and find something more reasonable?

Then you've got the other extreme -- Blue Cat. The fee is Twenty ($20) for two (2) scripts. And he phones you with your coverage, you don't have to phone him.

A friend of mine came in third this year, and got a number of requests for his script. Plus, I understand there's going to be an ad in VARIETY.

I don't know how he (they?) does it. (And by the way, neither of my scripts placed).

But it does raise a question: -- how many contests out there are sheer money-making machines? I think a lot. I've seen some obvious examples: high fees and skimpy prizes. The famed "execs" and "insiders" MIGHT look at the winner.

Oh, wow!

I'm part Scotch, so any contest over $35 seems high to me. And there seems to be no relationship between the price charged and the coverage (if any) offered. You don't get what you pay for.

John

It may very well be one of the better contests, but some contests offer hundreds, and even thousands of dollars. And maybe a $30 entry fee.

And BTW, Bonnie, the glass to which you refer is BOTH half full and half empty.

Best,

John

Yeah, $60 would make me think twice -- and then not do it.

Maybe what we need is more feminine screenplays (as opposed to screnwriters, where I think women are well represented). Over the past 20 years or more, there's been a lot of discussion -- in academic circles anyway -- of "feminine narratology." Apparently, it differs from the classic male pattern in that it's not so forward thrusting (sorry, that's the imagery they use), and everything is not aimed at the climax (I know, I know).

Rather than a strong forward flow, there are eddies and whirlpools, etc. Or so I'm told. The vagaries of character are explored, etc. Myself, I like much of this kind of writing. As far as screenplays go, one that comes to mind iS HOUSEKEEPING, with Christine Lahti. I like that too.

John

If I could just add a PS, then I'll subside.

What most audiences want most of the time is EXCITEMENT. And the easiest way to provide this in a screenplay is violence. It takes real skill to provide it without violence.

Sorry, I meant Francine, not Bonnie. And my initial post was meant mostly as a joke. I should have put a winking face after it.

Okay, a screenwriting program is not nothing. But maybe the best reward is being able to mention this in pitches.

But I still say it's a money-making scheme, as I think you yourself implied in an earlier post -- maybe on a different string.

Blessings,

John

Agreed.

Would it be possbile for you to state your judging criteria upfront? Maybe even reproduce the scoresheet your judges use? This, I think, would be fairer to the applicants who would have a better idea what you are looking for.

For example, I got some feedback from a contest that said my script -- a period piece -- was one of the top 20%, but didn't advance further because it didn't meet the criterion of "viability in today's market."

It would be helpful to know which contests use such criteria.

I'm afraid I agree with you, Steve. Still, I thought a few contests could try it -- maybe some already do. I imagine there would be quite a lot of overlapping of criteria -- plot and character development, dialogue, etc., etc.

But the particular one I was concerned about is marketability. If this is a criterion, it would definitely influence the entries, and I don't think saying so would cut down on tghe entries that much. Nicholl, I believe does NOT use marketability as a standard, for example.

Thanks, Steve. Yeah, it does. And I think there's one (American Accolades?) that has a different theme each year.

Let me add my thanks, too, Fred. Another great feature added to an already great site!

JOhn

I would like to add my recommendation to Pat's, and I wasn't even a finalist. I eventually did receive a phone call from Hoffman. And the price is certainly right, one of the best bargains in contests.

I would like to add my recommendation to Pat's, and I wasn't even a finalist. I eventually did receive a phone call from Hoffman. And the price is certainly right, one of the best bargains in contests.

Sun,

If you give me your email add, I can try to forward you his webpage. I'm not sure it'll work, though. I don't have any other email for him either.

Hey, Miriam!

I'll thank you not to use my screenplay as an example of QL writing! Even the title is the same! And where did you get my QL anyway!

Simian

Miriam,

Sorry, but I'm not allowed to comment on casting details, etc. I can only say at this point that we've got a major orangutan talent attached.

Tarzan

Dan.

They charge $35. Hardly exorbitant. And hardly "more than most."

John

As I understand it, Bryan, you can sell your script as long as it's not to a WGA-Sig prodco.

And you can continue to seek an agent, if you don't have one.

Miriam--

To say that hisotical dramas are tough is an understatement. I'm wondering if they're impossible from an unknown spec writer.

I wonder, because I have four of them --I got to the finals in a couple of contests, and got great reviews from prodcos, who then added, we don't buy histsorical dramas.

Do you know of ANY historical drama by an unknown that was bought? Or even optioned?

Just wondered.

On the Treadmill to Oblivion

I also understood that they were waiving the fee for finalists. But to my email request, they responded that it was only for winners.

However, I recommend that you check this out for yourself.

Miriam,

Way to go, girl! If anyone could make the first history spec sale, I'd want it to be you. (If it couldn't be moi, that is).

If you see CLARA, even in Deutschland, I'll think of you as Wonder Woman.

Blessings,

John

I would also recommend Script P.I.M.P. (despite the name). I got a CONSIDER from them, and they paid to have my script posted on Writers Script Network. And they're reading my rewrite free. Plus they sent two pages of useful notes.

BTW, P.I,M.P. means Pipeline Into Motion Pictures. (But if they're the Pimp, what does that make us?)

Not yet, Hernany. So I'm contintuing to send out QL pitches. (Got 4 requests so far)

John

Anyone know anything about them -- good or bad?

Thanks,

John

PS: If this was covered before, it didn't come up in my search.

From what I've heard, they have a good rep.

They ask you to submit a logline, right? Can't hurt, might help.

Just that they have a website at

www.roshamboproductions.com

For what it's worth, I think Moondance is a cut above Worldfest. Moondance got pretty good reviews -- check out their report cards on this site. At the same time, I too was a bit hesitant when I read their fee schedule. And it's $50 for a short.

They have different categories. Only one is women only.

John

Does anyone else think there's WAY too many contests? Particularly when only ten or fifteen of them mean anything?

I've been told by a number of people who should know that no one in Hollywood cares that you won the East Podunk Award (Prize: a $25 US Savings Bond and a pirated version of last year's model Final Draft)

Why are there so many? Cuz it's a way to make money -- for them, not us. And the fabled reads by H'wood "Insider" execs (like the brother-in-law of the guy who sweeps us at Paramount) seem to never amount to much.

What to do? I'd say to avoid marginal contests. A waste of money. Check out the response on this board (The "Report Cards") to contests. This is another invaluable service that Fred provides.

Boycott the turkeys.

John

I like their idea of limiting the number of scripts. Makes sense -- a number rather than a date. Might save a last-minute glut. And if they reach the number before their cutoff date, they start to read early. (So I guess that really make the cutoff date -- Aug 1 -- hypothetical only, if they haven't gotten 1200 by then)

And we know where we stand with regard to the odds.

Mark,

My advice would be: Beware!

Joe E was once WGA-Sig, but was drummed out for conduct unbecoming...

The usual: Asking for money upfront.

It's AUUUMMMM.

And I take Tylenol.

Who does this Stu Woolley guy think he is? Huh?

CONFESSION: I'm his writing partner. I gotta say his scripts are DAMNED good--even the ones he didn't write with me.

Alan,

I would just say, Be wary. I was with Joe and we came to a parting of the ways, and two screenwriters friends of mine left him as well.

He used to be WGA-Sig, but lost this accreditation. A while back, NEW YORK SCREENWRITER issued a warning about him.

I undeerstand he's formed a new company. Ask him what scripts he's gotten produced.

At the time I was with him, he had neither computer nor fax.

He says he'll submit to "contacts"? The question is, WHAT contacts?

My advice would be to inbestigate.

This contest was supposed to notify on April 1 (!). I've heard nothing. Maybe the joke's on me.

And they don't even have a website.

Duh. Please disregard the previous post. I checked and I DID hear from them, including the promised critique.

Sorry for any misunderstanding. They seem to be okay.

I don't think that's true, Sang. How could they? Even an option doesn't give them ownership.

Some companies will only look at scripts that have been previously optioned. Or only at a writer who has. So an option could help your resume.

When did you hear from them? I got the Email about the 3-day delay--then nothing.

Thanks,

John

Steven,

Thanks for revealing this. A friend of mine also was told he was in the lower 50%--and this with the strongest comic script I've ever read. Fast-paced, imaginative, on-the-mark- characters briefly hit off, brilliant dialogue, etc.

They listed Positives and Negatives. Among the negatives were qualities I thought were outstanding.

My conclusion? His screenplay was read by someone who thinks the last word in comedy is THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT MARY or AMERICAN PIE.

For what it's worth, Script PIMP gave one of my scripts a Consider, and paid to place it on WSN.

I can't speak in general, but my experience with them hasn't been bad.

Melvin,

Yes, they did send a page or two of feedback, listing strengths and places they would like to see changed. I amde some changes along the lines they suggsted--not as many as they would have like. I have had several exchanges with them, so I would say, Yes, they do work with you.

They say they are "circulating" my script (or maybe just the synopsis or logline), but they don't say where.

Hernany,

WSN is Writers Script Network. For about $30, you can put up a logline, synopsis, and your full script. You can check in then to see how many "hits" your logline gets, and whether any producer downloads your script.

Hernany,

The WSN posting was a by-product of ScriptPIMP rating my script with CONSIDER. I didn't even know they were going to do it.

The basic thing is the rewrites. They act like a script consultant. Then too, if you get CONSIDER or RECOMMEND, they push your script with prodcos and agencies. And you can rewrite and resubmit.

Not that any of this is going to guarantee you a sale--or even an option.

JACOB'S LADDER was produced in 1990. It starred Tim Robbins, Elizabeth Pena, and Danny Aiello.

See IMDb.

Speaking of Billy Crystal, ANALYZE THIS was crap too. IMO, a one-joke movie.

For my money, women don't start to become interesting until they've reached 30 or 35.

The same may be true of men, I dont' know.

Hi, Louisa!

I wondered what ever became of you. Now I see you've been busy designing graphics. Do you offer this as a service to other writers--at a reasonable cost?

Anyway, I had ten storyboard scenes made for one of my sp's. Never sent them out, but I'm now thinking of sending them out with one reqested script.

All the best,

John Green

To back up what Greg says about the difficulty of getting produced: I've heard that it takes 10 or 12 key people getting excited about a project at the same time, in order for the movie to get made. And they have to have coinciding windows of availability. And, hardest of all, they have to get someone(s) with a lot of cash to see fit to invest in that script with some hope of return. A very long shot indeed.

A metaphor I've heard is that you've got ten rings suspended from a bar and swinging back and forth. In that chance moment when the rings might be all lined up, you've got to throw a spear through all ten.

It's breathtaking naivete on our part (yeah, me too) to imagine that someone is going to sink tens of millions in something that we tossed off in six weeks--or even six months (or two years). We stand more of a chance of getting hit by lightning.

And there are about fifty factors going into the making of a movie, only one of which is the quality of the script.

For a darkly hilarious view of this process, I recommend MISTRESS--produced and acted in by Robert DeNiro, with Eli Wallach, Robert Wuhl, Jean Smart, Danny Aiello, Jason Alexander, and some great parts by actors whose names I forget. But to me, the standout is Martin Landau as a washed-up producer scrounging for deals. I own this tape, and watch it every couple of months, laughing more sardonically each time I do.

If you want to get rich quick, play the lottery.

John

Okay, Olga, let's assusme you're doing low budget, and it costs only $3-5 mil. That's still a lot to ask someone to invest in.

But I agree with your last observation. There's a lot of spittle out there: Movies about stupid, vicious people doing stupid, vicious things, and uttering banalities along the way.

Isn't Sun City a retirement community?

There's also Sun City, FL. I thought Del Webb had founded several of these throughout the country, all with the same name.

Try www.attorneyfind.com

Judy,

It's probably not worth worrying your pretty little head about what pleased this particular agency and what didn't. Whatever it was, it probably wouldn't be the same as what would pleae or displease another agency, not to mention prodcos.

Speaking of prodcos, if you've been through several drafts, and figure your script is as near to perfection as you can get it--w/o outside help--then query a few prodcos to see if they'd be interested in your script.

And, of course, enter contests. Check especially for those that offer feedback--they're listed here on MB. It's like getting cheap coverage.

It's good that you've finished at least the first draft of #2, and are projecting #3. Keep it up.

Yeah, there's gotta be more. LIke at least 400.

Pretty obviously, not all EL's are registered with this site. But it's a start.

Judy,

Since I'm Scotch, I always try the cheapest way first. So I belong to a local screenwriting group, and we criticize each others' scripts. For free.

Another alternative is to try www.zoetrope.com. There they run a mutual critique program. You critique four scripts, then get one of your own critiqued. You may thus end up with 10 or 12 critiques. Several critiques are better than just a few. Then you can see if one comment keeps recurring, etc.

Have fun,

John

Good point, Miriam, and maybe another reason to distrust them. They don't spring the cost factor on you till they're ready to sign you.

PS: I sent them a couple of scripts. Now wouldn't it be humiliating if they turned me down? They don't even want me if I pay them.

On the other hand--suppose they accept me? Doesn't this prove they accept everyone? No, no, I don't mean this to be as self-effacing as it sounds. I just mean that all we've heard about are acceptances. No rejections. So if they accept everyone, they're obviously in it for the money. I mean for the upfront money, not the legitimate money that comes with commissions.

And if that's they case, there's almost no chance of getting a script placed by them.

But all this is hypothetical. We'll just have to wait and see.

Thanks, Laurie. Looks like a great site.

Ditto.

Karen,

As you might have gathered, you're in the wrong place if you're looking for an agent. Try www.wga.org and click on Agents.

Thanks, Daphne.

For what it's worth, they passed on me too.

Lisa,

You probably wont' need an agent till they show interest in your script--ie, willing to buy or option it. Then you will definitely need an agent or lawyer. And it's probably only then that you could get an agent.

PS: Release forms protect the prodco, so the fact that they don't require one doesn't hurt you.

Jessica,

Can't you go to Delete on your email program and retrieve the newsletter?

Thanks, Deb.

I've used it, and got a few script requests. Lisa sends out to a large number of prodcos and agents.

Try lisa@venicearts.com

From what I've heard, Francine, Robert Flaxman is one of the best, if not the best.

But I can't speak at first hand, since I've never been able to afford him.

Francine,

Craig Kellem is probably a good buy for the money. ($175, I think). Gives a fairly detailed review in notes, plus a phone call (at your expense). Plus, as I recall, audio tapes.

Craig may be a bit authoritarian. In any case, he doesn't particularly like your questioning his judgment. Other than that, not bad. I adopted some of his suggestions, but not others.

The same may be said of Jeff Newman.

PS: Have you tried American Zoetrope? Free feedback, in return from some reviews on your part. And some of them are pretty good.

But whoever you use, you have to say the scriptaholic's prayer:

Oh, God, please grant me the resistance to keep the things that don't need changing, the courage to change the things that do, and the wisdom to know the difference.

The kicker, of course, is the third one. But as Terry Rossio says on Wordplayer (recommended site), YOU are the ultimate authroity on your script. YOU must decide what works and what doesn't

Je crois que la phrase en question soit Italienne, n'est-ce pas?

Proprement, c'est "Che sera, sera."

Jean

Vous avez raison, Monsieur. Je reste corrige. Le filme aura lieu en Maroc francais.

Last I heard, it was $800-$900, but I'm not sure what all you get for that. I believe it's a pretty detailed analysis, though. And I think it's by phone.

I submitted one last year, got the same treatment. Resolved never to submit to them again.

Good luck, Colin, and keep us posted.

John

I don't know where that kind of info is available, John, but the next best thing is to check the Report Card for each contest on this site. Have you don't that?

Some contests list judges on their website, which you can link to from here. Of course, these are the judges who read only the finalists. Before that stage, the reads are by nameless volunteers. In most cases. (In some small contests, the head guy reads all scripts)

CORRECTION: Have you DONE that?

Melvin,

That's good advice. Be brief. The gist: Here it is, as requested. And put REQUESTED MATERIAL on the envelope.

Do you send via Priority Mail? It's the best, I think, and only three dollars and something.

Melvin,

It does help, as I've discovered. Any carpentry need done? Tree limbs sawed off? Painting done?

Golf or night?

Let's not forget our heroes. Not only the police, firemen and medical workers who were crushed, but also those on the fourth flight who made the plane crash into the ground before it could reach its target.

God save us from religious fanatics!

They murder BECAUSE they are religious fanatics.

I would argue that discrimination is necessary. Anger is not enough. We also need cunning to ferret out who the real culprits are.

Remember, many of those countries in the Middle East are our allies, and not just Israel. As for an indiscrimate nuke attack, two wrongs don't make a right. (Forgive the cliche)

I agree with Melvin. Most religions have a piece of the truth, but many of them take the next step and act as if they had ALL the truth. I was born and brought up Roman Catholic, but I'd be the first to admit that our church is one of the worst offenders in this regard.

The really offensive people are the ones who imagine they speak for God, and who think they know what God wants. This is the source of the evil. As if our puny human minds could comprehend what God "wants." Look at the Universe. It's unimaginably greater and more mysterious than we could ever comprehend. And yet, if God created it (as I believe), then God must be far greater and more mysterious yet.

In the Middle Ages, they tried to bring the universe down to human dimensions by placing the Earth in the center, with everything else revolving around it. (BTW, at least they knew the earth was round) And we still want to bring God down to our petty concerns.

The worst people are those who say, "I know what God is like, and if you don't agree with me, I'll kill you." This is Bin Laden and his gang of thugs. They mistake God for a projection of their own egos and culture.

But one good thing about the Middle Ages is that the Schoolmen (Aquinas, etc.) taught that the essence of God is Existence. That is, God is the truest thing that exists. And since God shares this existence with the Universe, all existence is good. As William Blake wrote, "All that lives is Holy."

Okay. We're probably in agreement.

But I think that no book, even, can contain the truth.

Yes, Craig, I too believe Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism have many admirable tenets which we should incorporate more into our religions.

For one thing, they don't seem to have a set of beliefs and practices that everyone has to adhere to. Other religions might presecute you or even kill you if you disagree.

Buddhism, etc., seem to place the emphasis on the inner self, and its lifelong struggle to get in touch with the Guiding Spirit of the World.

The question is, to what extent could we Westerners adapt ourselves to such a religion? For one thing, it would mean that we might have to spend a little less time in the pursuit of money. "Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" involves something much broader and deeper than fixating on the "bottom line."

Both Hitler and Stalin were raised Catholic. Austria, the country that Hitler came from, is the most Catholic country in the world, even including Italy.

Stalin had even studied for the Orthodox priesthood. At some point, of course, he stopped being religious. Same goes for Pol Pot, who was presumably raised Buddhist.

Anyway, these mass-murdering dictators were brought up religiously in their formative years. And Mussolini, Franco, and Salazar remained Catholic.

Hitler, I'm told, used to pride himself on walking through the red light district of Vienna without giving in to sins of the flesh. The Church always preached the virutes of celibacy, but didn't seem to have too much to say about mass murder.

I say this as someone who was raised Catholic myself--Catholic parochial school, high school, and college.

I agree that no religion is perfect, nor are its followers. Some (including me) say that Christianity was perverted as far back as the fourth century, when it became the official religion of the Roman Empire, with all its pomposity, grandiosity, and worship of earthly power. Christians had been persecuted by Pagans. Now they began persecuting Pagans. They had learned nothing. None of this invalidates the teachings of Jesus, however.

And I agree that we sometimes romanticize the Eastern religions. After all, it was a Hindu who murdered Gandhi. And Hindus have persecuted Muslims.

But religions do become corrupted. Shortly after the death of Mohammed, for example, the Muslims began a campaign of conquest that lasted hundred of years. (But at the same time, Jews generally fared better in the Muslim world in the Middle Ages than they did in Christian countries)

(BTW, "Araby" has nothing to do with Eastern religions)

Another cautionary tale:

Over a year ago, a well-known prodco with strong TV ties said they would try to market a co-authored script of mine to the networks or cable companies. They said they'd send us a deal memo/option agreement the next day.

It never happened. No deal memo was forthcoming, nor anything else. We did get word that the prodco was trying to market the script, but after a couple of months it became apparent that their efforts were unsuccessful.

On problem: Our script was a period piece by two unknowns. (I guess that's two problems)

Segue to a few months later: A NY management company becomes interested in the same script. They say they will contact a hot director. But they also want a few changes in the script. My partner and I go ahead and make the changes--nothing drastic.

BTW, the management company is representing the script on a "hip-pocket" basis. They're not representing us.

The manager has a brother in LA who runs a prodco. He sends him the script. The brother--and another H'wood veteran--read the script, but say that the lead is not engaging enough. They want more drastic changes than the ones we've already made. I waver, but my partner says, No way. I agree with my partner.

The manager/prodco here represents a mindset that says, We want to see if this writer is going to be easy to work with. We don't want to deal with a prima donna.

On our side though, we have a "hero" who has been called "the truest American who ever lived." One aspect of this is that the guy is violent, and even for a short time, a terrorist. Plus, he attacked the US gov't.

There's no way he can be made into a touchy-feely hero, which seems to be something like what our sponsors seem to want.

The basic problem here may be that there's a formula that everyone--particularly newbies--have to adhere to. The audience has to "identify" with the hero. But many great stories don't have such a hero.

As a bystander here, I feel I must spring to Melvin's defense. Melvin made a light-hearted, funny comment about Ashley being the Evil One, comparing it to having Geico (?) star in your movie.

Nothing heavy here. And nothing about a stroke. Then, out of the blue, Randy launches a heavy-handed attack. Only after that did Melvin innocently mention a stroke.

For what it's worth, my 2 cents.

Stephen,

I agree on the NY Screenwriter brads. Very sturdy.

But for the life of me, I can't imagine how washers can delay the undoing of the brads. Just take the brads off, and the washers will fall off. Then leave them off, if you wish.

Also, the brads are much more likely to cut someone than the washers are. I doubt that it matters much whether you use washers or not. They do offer a slight bit of protection to the cover, and also make it a little easier to bend the brads flat. But no big deal.

Paula,

My grandmother told me that a "typewriter" was a device that people used to use (right after the Civil War, I believe), to send messages, produce scripts, etc. I only have her word for this.

Actually, the washers fall off when you squeeze the brad wings together to get them through the punched hole.

Now I'm going back to bed. Probably should have stayed there.

Paula,

PS: I hope Austin was productive for you.

Ron,

I sent them a script, and got a "Consider" plus notes for some changes. They also paid for the script being posted on Writers SCript Network. And also sent it around--I'm not sure where.

But nothing came of it. So the verdict is so-so. But they do work with you.

And remember, these fabled "industry professionals" look only at the finalists--maybe five or ten scripts.

Ashley,

Did you notice the derivation of the word?

Good point, Terry. Some of the comments on Writers Network are especially devastating. (I will add, tho, that I've used their agency guide in the past, and it was very useful).

Many thanks to Fred for making the Report Cards feature available. It's invaluable.

On a side issue: Why do some contests offer screenwriting software? Don't most writers already have some kind of screenwriting software?

I hasten to add that there are a number of very good contests -- besides Nicholl.

Congrats, Bonita!

I look forward to it.

John

Thanks, Miriam and Louisa. I just saw your posts.

I don't know when they will air. The series is called GrimVeil. Supposed to be scary. I guess they'll have to produce them first. I'll let you know when I know.

Best to you both. (Anything from Deurschland, Miriam? A German company requested one of mine, which I just sent out)

John

Happy Turkey Day, all! But go easy on the mashed potatoes, stuffing, and pumpkin pie.

Oh, hell, okay, don't go easy on anything. Enjoy!

Does he also wane?