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I've written a screenplay that is really the inner journey of a character, as evidenced by the many dream sequences and shifts to other realities. I know how to use flashback, but can't find anything on formatting/iintroducing dreams or other realities. Also, many of these shifts are meant to surprise the audience, and many even blur line between dream and reality, so you aren't suppposed to be sure which is which. Anyway, my instinct is to present the scenes as is (Int/Ext location, day/night), leaving it to the reader/viewer to make sense of things, but I'm unsure. Any insight or suggestions would be much apppreciated. Thanks!

Thanks for both suggestions, as both are helpful. Just as a little side note: one of the most challenging (and enjoyable) aspects of trying to create a story that blurs the line between dream and reality is making sure that it doesn't confuse but intrigues. Obscurity is a problem, but mystery is the aim.

In response to Patrick, I would only say that what's important is that the director know that the story is clearly blurring the lines between dream and reality. If that's the story, then that's the story. There are many movies that do this: Vanilla Sky, Donnie Darko, etc. And though I haven't looked at these screenplays, I would be shocked if they established what was a dream and what was not because the whole point is to put the audience in a state of uncertainty. It is crucial for the events that do take place to be clear (and not vague)--that something definitive does happen with each proceeding scene. At the same time, I don't think a movie/screenplay has to privilege the external world (at the expense of the inner world) by saying explicitly that this is a dream and this is not. It's just a different way to look at the world, and so a different way to look at screenwriting.

Hi Patrick:

Not to keep this discussion any longer than it needs to, but sometimes, regarding a particular scene, there can be room for that scene to be understood as a dream or as reality. But if I then label it as either, doesn't that necessarily limit the screenplay, the story? For instance, at one point in my own screenplay, I have my main character (who is seemingly experiencing events in reality) fall off a cliff, only to wake up in a cemetery, sleeping atop a grave plot (the implication being that what had just happened may have been a dream--or, by sleeping atop a grave plot, he may now indeed be dead!). And yet, must I go back and label the preceding scene a "Dream," or label the new scene as the "Afterlife" when part of the intrigue is that we just don't know?

Anyway, we may just be very different writers with a different idea of the way a story can work. At the same time, I will say--and say strongly--that any story must be consistent. If I make the rules, I can't break them (just because I made the rules). Now, if as a screenwriter one wishes to rely upon external reality for one's rules, so be it. That's one way to go. But if one wishes to write a screenplay that explores the inner life, one can deviate from the rules of the external world and make one's own rules. Or at least, that's the way I see it.

Hi Ron:

I just wanted to say thanks for your thoughts on the matter. I couldn't agree more, especially as a screenwriter who is new not only to the process and struggles of screenwriting but also to what might "sell". My sense has always been that such a story would have a smaller audience, so rather than fool myself into appealing to a broad audience that wouldn't care for the story anyway, sticking to my guns would be the way to go (without being so self-involved as to leave my audience, small as they are, completely behind). Thanks again!

I know this will expose me as the novice that I am (I have recently completed my first screenplay), but I am struggling with my scene headings--specifically, with how much information to offer in them in various situations.

For instance, if I want to place a scene in the living room of my main character's mother's house (he lives there but it's her house), I might do something like this:

INT. LIVING ROOM OF JEFF'S MOTHER'S HOUSE -- DAY

But that seems entirely too wordy, too much info. So I want to pare it down to just INT. LIVING ROOM -- DAY, making it clear in the narrative or character description that we are in his mother's house. But I'm not sure if this okay.

Another way to do it that occured to me would be to start with the long scene heading, and then when switching to other rooms in the same sequence, go to the shorter scene headings (?).

The problem comes in, though, when the story moves to other locations with their own living rooms, kitchens, etc. I know I can't just do "LIVING ROOM" there, bit I guess this is what I'm wondering: I knwo the scene headings are to firmly place the reader in a location, but how much info does one offer, and when is too much too much?

Obviously, I'm unsure, and perhaps I'm just obsessing over minute details as I'm at the end of the process of writing the screenplay. Any assistance or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Thanks, Jean--it helps immeasureably!

I'm going, in large part because I've just written my first script and they offer instruction on pitching the first day. Also, I was impressed by the fact that they don't pay the execs, agents, etc. to come, while the Expo sounded like a true free-for-all.

Jenna--

As I am going and haven't been before (and you have) I was wondering if you could offer any advice on what to expect. Thanks!

I was wondering if anybody could offer any resources on how to prepare an excellent pitch, especially for a non-linear story. I've got about a week before I'll be pitching my script for the first time. Thanks!

I haven't been a part of this dialogue, but I do want to interject one comment. Thomas, the very idea of using "rape as a plot device" is implictly dangerous -- it ignores the inherent significance of the event. "Rape" is not some kind of malleable toy to be played with how one wishes. And I think that is basis of some of the people's problems with the story idea to begin with. People may continue to use rape as a plot device (and no doubt they will) but that doesn't excuse it or inherently grant it somehow merit. As for the idea that art is never ever reality, I'm sorry, but what is your definition of reality? Of art? Isn't art at least about reality, and if it is, shouldn't it strive to have some connection to reality? Through entertainment, one may escape, but if we are talking about "artistic" license, or even a story that has some kind of meaning or significance, to relagate a subject to a "plot device" betrays an ignorance of the very nature of the event.

On the other hand, if the writer of the story idea which was posed to begin this thread, if that writer dealt with the character and her experience, explored her psyche with an attention to how someone "in reality" could possibly respond to the event, that character could posibly have any variety of psychological response to the event--all based upon who she is (her past), the circumstances of the rape, what happens afterward, etc. In short, anything is possible in a story, but those possibilites ought to be believeable in accordance to our (and the audience's) experience with reality (and, for instance, personal traumas we have all gone through).

Just my own thoughts on the matter. As a male who has never directly experienced such an event, I believe fully that I can and do have the license to write about the subject, but only if I am willing to fully place myself within the character, fully and truly ("really"--quotes for the fact that I must use my imagination). The danger is to buy into some kind of "romantic" or canned cultural understanding of rape.

Thanks for the book idea--I already ordered it. And thanks also for the one-line bit of advice. Short as the statement is, it rings very true and serves as a clear and strong reminder of where my focus should (and should not) be. Thanks again!

I was wondering if you all might help me decipher some industry terms that I can't seem to easily track down via the net. What exactly would an "elevated" horror film be? And how about a "contained" thriller? Any ideas?

Thanks for the clarification--anybody heard of "elevated horror"? (Would it be a kind of conceptual horror?)

Hi all:

This past weekend I met with someone in a production company who asked me to send her my script. With her name and the name of the production company, I figured (wrongly) that I'd be able to track down her e-mail (plus, I wasn't thinking too clearly after having pitched a number of companies at the pitchfest I was attending). Anyway, I was wondering if anyone had any inexpensive (i.e. free) ways of tracking down e-mail addresses of people working in the industry. Thanks!

Personally, I'd say splice the genres together. Do something that no one has ever done before--if you are being pulled in two directions, rather than resist that, read that impulse as a desire to do both. How do you write a "comedy thriller"? Not sure (that's for you to figure out), but consider how many horror films have infused comedy into them. That aside, for me at least, I find the "seriousness" of thrillers tiring (there are so many bad thrillers that take themselves too seriously). So, infuse new life into the genre by placing a spin on it. People say that everything has been done before, but if that's true, take the stuff that has been done and present it in a unique way. Good luck!

For what's it worth, I'd have to disagree that one must play it safe and wedge oneself in a genre. What will distinguish or set one apart from others are the twists one puts one the genre to make the story unique, singular. If you stick to the genre and simply do what's been done before, why would anyone want to produce your script? And let's say there's some truth to the idea that the production studios are looking for firmly set genre work--will they look for it from writers who haven't broken through, or the tried and true who have been doing the job for years? In the end, you have to write the stories that come to you, whatever genre (or genres) they're in--that will ensure that your story, whatever it is, is both as good as it can be and as unique. It's THE story that came from YOU (not their story, not the story they want, which will likely be an imitation of what they really want). As soon as you tailor your writing to a "market", you're not letting the story come through. I went to a pitchfest this past weekend where the speakers, screenwriters and agents, all said that you gotta do what's good for you, what's good for the story--as McKay says, if it's a good story, you could throw it off the highway overpass and it'll end up in the right hands, get produced. In this business, you gotta trust your gut and believe.

Thanks--I actually went ahead and did the IMDB pro myself (got the free trial!). Anyway, I ultimately tracked the person down. But thanks so much for the advice and offer of help!

I can understand the perspective of knowing your genre--your primary genre--before you write. At the same time, I don't think you have to consciously know this, consciously position yourself, even though you may be working within that genre. So, yes, an understanding of what kind of movie you are writing is important, even if it is merely a launching point.

At the same time, I still believe that concerns over marketing oneself must be secondary (if not tercery) to creating, first and foremost, a great story. The rest will take care of itself. (BTW, I also think some people simply work well within genre, while others find the constaints of genre limiting--while still others like to play with genre. Taratino comes to mind. What's his genre? Drama? Is "Death Proof" drama? Horror? It doesn't seem to fit either. But, whatever it is--and many may disagree with me--it's a fine film...)

I'd say it all depends upon the story itself, i.e. the context. You could look at a film like "Mulholland Drive" and claim that all--or almost all--of the characters are "phantoms," while also saying that the female protagonist, even if she isn't physically present in a scene, is at least present through the projection of herself into other characters. Think about dream states, or any film that bends reality: whatever we have are a series of "phantoms" because the state itself is "phantom".

Sorry to unduely complicate the issue, but the answer to your question really depends upon the nature of your story.

In the spring I'm going to be teaching an Intro class on screenwriting and am thinking about what screenplays would be good ones for my students to read (to acquaint themselves with the medium and to learn how to effectively write dialogue, narration, scene shifts, etc.) Any ideas? I'd love to hear them.

Janet--

Sounds like you're talking about "The Others" (Nicole Kidman). If you haven't seen it, it's a good one...

Hi Janet--

"The Others" doesn't have the speed up, slow down thing you're talking about, but it does have the two parallel realities where the occupants of each aren't aware of "the others"--but then, they gradually become aware of them. It's a great little ghost story.

Thanks to everyone for all of the ideas. I'm thinking about throwing in a quirky, nonlinear script as well, maybe something by Charlie Kauffman or Taratino (seems Pulp Fiction would be the obvious choice).

Any genre ideas? For comedy, romantic comedy, horror, action? Depending on what the students want to write, I was thinking about requiring them to read a screenplay from the grenre they've chosen to work in.

Thanks again to everyone. Your suggestions have been a great help! (BTW--what about something like "Good Will Hunting"?)

Hi:

I'm beginnign to realize how important getting a positive rating (a "Read) from a script consultant can be, so, since there are so many and many are so expensive, I was wondering if you all might recommend the "best for your buck."

I've read that people like xtreme screenwriting, though there are genre restrictions. I've used A Film Writer (which is not only inexpensive, but offers very good feedback). Beyond that, though I'm a bit of a novice in these things.

I've heard about Script Shark. Any good? What others? Does it depend on what kind of script you have? Would someone send a non-linear script to a consultant at one place and not another? Any and all insights would be helpful. Thanks!

Thanks, everyone. I already sent my script to Barb.

One last question, though--my understanding from script consultants is not only that they can help you improve your script, but if your script is good enough to get a favorable rating, they may even help with the contacts needed potentially get the script sold. Is this true, and is this true with Barb in particular? Or is this aspect of script consultants only an urban myth?

I'm with Jean on this one. The resources I have looked to have all stated that the current trend is not to include them, and from my perspective, I can't understand why they ever were included (if a sentence or bit of dialogue doesn't end on a certain page, doesn't it make common sense that one should turn the page to find the rest?)

I see your point, Ron. Actually, for me, it helps make sense out of something that just didn't make sense to me.

At the same time, because of the need to avoid too many of these "more's" and "cont's", isn't it ironic that the writer has to curb his/her story to fit this structural requirement (if one chooses to follow it), potentially impeding on the value of the story itself? For me, it's enough to get the vision down, the story as it wants to be, without having to play around with making that vision fit within each page, and not run on to the next...

Hi Ron:

I see your point, and as a poet as well who has written in a number of traditional forms (such as the sonnet), I do understand what you are speaking of. Stories aren't created in some kind of "ideal" space, free of real world demands--they never are--and one can certainly argue (as you do) that this especially applies to screenwriting. That said, when writing the story into the screenwriting format for the first time, the first and most important task is to get the story down. Yes, that story may change and may need to change if a producer wants your 120 page script to be 105 pages, or whatever the demand may be. Flexibility (heck, in all walks of life) is important. But if, in writing the story initially, one is immediately constrained by such an artificial demand, my point is that the writer may not even get the story down as it wants to be because he/she is wrapped up in trying to format the it so that dialogue and action does not carry on to the next page. As John Gardner (a novelist, incidentallly, which may expose a weakness in my argument) once said, the goal of storytelling is to create a continuous dream that the audience will be so immersed in that the audience won't be consciously aware that he/she is reading words, seeing images, etc. But if the writer can't be free initially to immerse him/herself in that continuous dream, the likelihood that the story itself as something of merit will suffer as a consequence will be that much greater.

So, if after I've written my opus (or you, yours) some fortunate producer comes along and says, "I love your screenplay--but you need to cut it down to so many pages, and take out this and this, while adding this" you can bet I'll not only do it but FIND A WAY. In the meantime, the story should be foremost what it wants to be, and this without a preliminary set of formatting demands that a) aren't in the service of presenting the story but caging the story, and b) that just don't make any sense for a spec script anyway. (Again, if someone comes along and says, "Write me this story in this way for this price," believe me: the last thing I'd say is, "I'm sorry, but that would infringe upon the story I would create.")

So, in the end, I think we agree, though we may come at the issue from different sides (and with different points of emphasis).

Hi All:

As a new screenwriter with but one screenplay under his belt, I've got a question about the whole landing-an-agent thing. Please let me know what you think: I've heard that when you set out to look for an agent, you basically have one shot so you must make that shot count (have the best query letter, etc.). Is this true? Let's say I send out query letters to any and all places, get nowhere (I'm obviously being optomistic here), then write another screenplay. With that second screenplay, can I write the agents all over again, querying them with the new screenplay? I assume they wouldn't remember me the first time around, but I'm not sure if there's some kind of industry code regarding this.

I'm asking the above in particular because my first script is quite different--quite unconventional--and so may lack the marketability to find a home immediately. That said, I don't want to necessarily sit back on that script and wait until I've finished my second, which by the way I do plan to make more appealing to a mass audience--though this all depends on what the "rules" are regarding looking for an agent.

Anyway, any and all insights would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!

Patrick and Ron:

Just wanted to say thanks so much for the advice. It rang very true and was quite helpful in making me re-think how to appproach the task. Thanks again!

Orlanda,

I'm not an expert at loglines by any means, but I'm not sure I understand what the "storm" is. Is this a literal storm or a metaphorical one?

Timothy, I'm glad you started this thread. I've been struggling with a logline for my script for...well, forever. It's a squirrely story to say the least. Any thoughts on my logline by any of you movie byters would be most welcome!

"When an aspiring mortician discovers he can ''paint'' the dead back to life, he's thrown into a nightmare world of gentle zombies, a serial killer dubbed The Suicide Killer, and the decision whether to revive his own deceased mother, only to come face-to-face with his own demise."

Thanks, Ron--you've given me a lot to think about. It's extremely helpful.

Hi Orlanda,

As I said in my first posting (and as the posting of my own logline shows), it could just be me. The original logline, though, is hard to grasp for me--I do wonder what exactly the story is (from the second part of teh sentence), so maybe that accounts for the greater interest (?). Anyway, the second one is much more clear, but couldn't you combine the two sentences into one? Something about how the brother's life is threatened by these supernatural storms (I'm not sure if they are supernatural, but perhaps there's an adjective that may suggest what it is while also whetting the reader's appetite).

Hope this helps!

Ron (and anyone else who'd care to voice their opinion),

Using your suggestions I've reconfigured the logline. Let me know if I'm closer with this one. Thanks!

"When an aspiring mortician discovers he can ''paint'' the dead back to life, he's thrown into a nightmare world where he must confront his personal demons (or in this case, zombies) to begin a new life."

Ron,

Thanks for the extra feedback. I sensed exactly what you mentioned about the end of the logline. The NEW LIFE is not really about getting the mortician job but just moving beyond a stifling, anti-life, negative view on life--striking out and creating your own life, leaving behind all that is DEAD and starting anew (not dead literally, but figuratively).

In any event, I see your struggle with the end of the logline, and thanks again so much for the insight. I think I might be on the cusp of getting a logline that, well, can work--even if it it'll probably never be perfect. :)

Hi Janet,

I'll offer my two cents. The logline is enticing, but basing my response on what I've learned from Ron in this very thread, I would say the end of the logline (the second sentence) doesn't reveal to us what the (last thing) is that she expects. It keeps the script--what the script is about--away from the person who is reading the logline. The reader knows there is a wedding, that there is incredible dancing, but the main thing, the thing that is at the heart of the story, isn't given to us. And that's the one thing that needs to given.

If you even take a look at the first logline I posted on this thread, it suffers from the same problem yours does. It entices the reader (at least, I think mine does), but it doesn't tell the reader in the end what the script is about.

Hi Janet,

I think the logline works much better with the newer (or, I guess, older) version. As far as why you haven't gotten any reads, who can say? If I was a producer looking for a compelling script with music, dancing, and romance, I'd (read) it. But then, I'm not a producer, so your guess is as good as mine.

Harvey:

Just to throw my own persepctive out there, I think both movies you mention do have endings--they just aren't your typical, traditional endings. "No Country"'s end, though, I agree, doesn't work. And the reason it doesn't work is that it paints a picture of hopelessness, of throwing up its hands in the face of the insurmountable. Yet, there must be something redeeming, or else why create a film/stoy in the first place?

On the other hand, I loved the end of "There will be blood" because the director/storyteller offered no redemption for the character (but not necessarily us). Lewis's character was offered many opportunities to turn-the-corner, to grow, but he never figured out how to live. So he ends the movie by saying "I'm finished" which is really a statement of his life--he's destroyed everything and is left with nothing. It makes of the film a cautionary tale.

Again, these endings will not please most people because they do no take the usual paths to resolution. Such endings may not be marketable (and therefore, dangerous for aspiring screenwriters) but I would argue they are important endings for storytellers to expand the possibility of what a story can be, where it can go. Such endings force the viewer to think about them because they are emotionally awkward (they don't fit our usual conception of how a story should end) and expand his/her notions of what form a meaningful existence can take.

I'm still working on my own logline and have a new version that I'm hoping is not only intriguing but clearly gets across the quirky, psychological nature of my script (not to mention does everything a logline is supposed to do). Any thoughts on it would be welcome. Thanks!

When an aspiring mortician discovers he can paint the dead back to life, he's thrown into a nightmare world where his personal demons emerge as rebellious, flesh-eating zombies.

I have a question related to Patrick's answer. In the business world (and movies are a business, after all), a certain level of professionalism seems to be the norm ... for instance, responding in some fashion to a query, even if to write the words "sorry--not interested". Why this lack of basic professionalism in one of the biggest money-making industries in the world? Are the two seconds it takes to shoot a reply THAT valuable?

Well said, Ron. Thanks for the perspective.

As an English and creative writing teacher, one of the truths to writing is...you must know the rules to (effectively) break them. Take an English class (or two).

I would say, if you really plan to pursue writing seriously, you can't rely on a computer program to write for you. But then, as a teacher I can honestly say that my students seem to think you can...

Just want to say...thanks, Ron, for taking the time out to write your threads. Your insight always rings true. Great stuff.

I'm working on a scene with a character in a cemetery who's looking for a particular gravestone. When he finds it, I want to show what's written on the gravestone. How do I format this? As dialogue or in the narrative? Also, I'd like--if at all possible--to present it to the reader with the appropriate breaks (RIP on top, dead person's name under that, dates under that). Thanks in advance!

Thanks to everyone for some great insight. It's all very helpful!

Forgive my sarcasm, but welcome to the wonderful world of trying to sell your script! (As a writer who has published poetry previously, I could also say the world of publishing, though at least the publishing world will tell you "no".) The name of the game, though, is persistence, and if someone does reply and is interested, that's quite an accomplishment. In short, silent rejection is the norm...

That said, I found pitching to be the most rewarding approach to selling a script. Not that I've sold anything, but at least you feel as if you have a fighting chance - they are directly before you, they can't "delete" you, and some of my fondest memories of the process were based on responses from prod companies who liked the idea of my script but passed anyway (because their company's interest lies elsewhere).

Finally, I'll just say that, while writing the script itself may be a fraction of the effort needed to see it realized on the screen (sorry), it's much more fun and rewarding. Keep writing, and good luck!

Thanks for the read. Amidst all of the practical threads here about how many lines of narrative or dialogue to provide (but don't go beyond three! or wait, maybe it should be two!) it's refreshing to be reminded that it is the STORY that will sell. Not the formula, not the formatting, but the story. Yes, it's important to format correctly and all that jazz, but write something compelling, singular, and I can bet the studio or agent just may look past the occasional formatting glitch. Fitting a pre-established mold with a lackluster story or having the a "perfect" screenplay in terms of formatting may impress the occasional mummified accountant (oh my, are movie producers accountants?!) but for the love of the story, the story that moves, that excites, do what YOU got to do.

I'm with you, Ron. The point of my post is to not lose sight of what really (especially) matters. Yes, formatting matters, not having colored covers matters, not putting in camera angles matters, but these are pretty basic. Know the basics, do the basics, but beyond that: just tell your compelling story.

Hi:

I'm trying to figure out how to format a daydream sequence where my main character looks back on a past experience (in the script) and self-consciously alters the events to fit his own fantasy. He met a girl, was overhwelmed, had an awkward first experience with her, but now is fantasizing the "perfect" first encounter with her. Would I do this as flashback? dream? Neither?

Thanks in advance.

As a teacher myself, I'm with David here. Recently submitted to the 20/20 competition, got panned, but the feedback--such as it was--was limited to "yes" and "no" and why I chose a particular name for my character. (As well as the question I should pose to myself: "Would you be willing to stand in the rain outside the theater to see your movie?" My answer: Uh, yes, actually. After all, I wrote the damn thing!)

I've always believed that everyone is entitled to their opinion so long as they back it up--and yet, nowadays, in this culture, it seems that having an opinion is sufficient (especially if the person expressing that opinion is in a position of authority). As a long-standing poet, I can remember numerous occasions where my professors--published, prize-winning poets--express their opinion and simply expect me, as the peon, to blindly accept it. Then, when I ask for an explanation, they have none. They even seem dumbfounded that an explanation is expected of them.

Thanks!

Hi Ron--Belatedly, I just wanted to pass along my congratulations as well. Well done!

I think of sci-fi and trilogy and I think of Star Wars. From what you've said, though, your first script ends on a down-note, correct? Most films that end as such do leave a glimmer of hope, though, a lesson learned, something edifying that can be taken away...so their relationship is over. Where do they go from there? It seems you can have a "see you in another life" moment, perhaps.

Not sure if any of this helps (probably not), but it's hard to say with a better understanding of where the story ends at present moment.

I meant, "WITHOUT a better understanding of where the film ends". Sorry.

I'd be more than happpy to ready the script, though it may take a bit of time to get back to you (I teach and the semester is picking up speed right now--lots of papers to grade, etc.)

Anyway, from what you've written, I really like your idea. (I guess it does take the "Star Wars" route). In thinking about it further, to cement that you have someone on board with the first movie, it seems incredibly important that the first movie stands on its own. Again, think about "Star Wars" (Part IV). I'm sure the producers and all involved were thinking about more movies, but that first one needed to be a success on its own or it just wouldn't happen. And that first one is very well self-contained, standing quite well on its own.

Anyway, like I said, I'd love to take a look at your script, though again, just keep in mind that it will take me a bit to get back to you.

One person's trash is another person's treasure. The trailer compelled me to purchase the graphic novel.

22. James is very witty.